D&D 5E Sorcerer Changes

[TwoSix]

So maybe at 1st level instead of 4 slots, you get 3 uses of 1 spell, and 2 uses of another.

The most awkward thing about this is that I think it requires a big table, with a column for each spell you know. (Each time you level up you'd still be allowed to unlearn one and learn a new one, and (or?) be allowed to swap two spells of the same level between columns.)

Shadow of the Demon Lord uses a system almost identical to this for casting, where each spell you learn can be cast X number of times, and X is a function of both the spell’s level and the character’s Power stat. Power starts at 0, and increases by 1 every odd level as long as the character is taking a spell casting class.

 

[MoonSong]

It occurs to me that there's one possibly obvious change that I haven't seen (which may simply be because I haven't seen it): the sorcerer's magic is supposed to be "innate" so why not use...innate spellcasting?

That is, instead of having slots per level long rest, you have specific spells that you can cast x times per long rest. The basic trade-off is that you'd get more overall spells per long rest, but fewer spells. And since the "slots" aren't polymorphic, you can't spend unused slots on other spells. However, you could still convert slots to sorcery points and then spend them on spells.

At higher levels you could turn favorite spells into short rest refresh, and eventually (like the Wizard) At Will.

So maybe at 1st level instead of 4 slots, you get 3 uses of 1 spell, and 2 uses of another.

The most awkward thing about this is that I think it requires a big table, with a column for each spell you know. (Each time you level up you'd still be allowed to unlearn one and learn a new one, and (or?) be allowed to swap two spells of the same level between columns.)

Take into account innate spellcasting was designed for DM use on monsters. As such it doesn't support having the amount of abilities a higher level PC has. It is a simplified mechanic meant as a compromise for DMs to be easy to run. It doesn't have very innate flavor, instead it feels too rigid and mechanical.

 

[Redwizard007]

I am aware of what cherry picking is and I didn't do that, as I covered in my last post. There is no other context in your post that applies to the value of using the Divine Soul as an example. Half of your post is talking about Con as a casting stat. It has no bearing on the Divine Soul, there is no context lost.

If you feel I ignored an important detail to the Divine Soul discussion in your post, point it out and I'll address it, but I don't understand why you are getting so upset that I only am dealing with one of your original three points.



Really? Not wanting to have two of the three casting stats confuses you about why he would have picked a class that utilizes the third casting stat?

Or are you confused why I brought him up as an example if he was making his build off of story considerations and not mechanical ones?

You said (to summarize quickly) "Well if he liked Cleric spells and didn't like the sorcerer mechanics, he should have played a cleric" in that context his desire for a specific story is a valid counter-point. He wanted a full caster as well, so Paladin was out. Sorcerer and Celestial warlock were his only two options that fit what he wanted, and he's played multiple warlocks in a row.

I think that demonstrates fairly well that you can't argue "He decided to play a sorcerer so he must like the sorcerer mechanics", that is false. He wanted the Sorcerer fluff more than he wanted the mechanics.



I am not dismissing it, it is a very powerful ability.

It is essentially their only powerful ability.

I've been in a lot of discussions about the sorcerer, and it always holds true that no one talks about builds using the subclass abilities (barring the Divine Soul as an exception). To my memory, there are only two things that get talked about as the viable strength of the sorcerer.

1) Twin spell buffs

2) Subtle spell to never be counterspelled (which is rare in my expeirence, I can probably count the number of times anyone has been counterspelled on one hand in our games)

I'm not saying this doesn't happen with other classes, but not nearly to the same extent. Generally people can take and combo four or five different things using different subclasses or class/race combos. Take the rogue, sure, everyone talks about sneak attack and how to optimize it, but you've also got the medic rogue by going theif and taking the Healer feat. Swashbuckler with the Magic Initiate for Booming Blade. Assassin with Alert to try and get those auto-crits. Half-Elf Inquisitive for support and skills (I believe it was the inquisitive, going off memory), the scout to get a ranger feel and be more slippery with ranged attacks.

Each viable builds with different roles and avenues, not even talking about the awesome power of Uncanny dodge to make off-tanks or Expertise and Reliable Talent to make skill monkeys.

To remind you of the comparison. Sorcerer: Twin spell 3rd level spells or higher. Subtle spell to avoid counterspell. Play a Divine Soul. That is a single build. That is a problem, there should not be a single build and that is it.


To the rest of that paragraph, sure, you can burn out and nova faster than the wizard. About once. The comparison is actually pretty stark. Going 6th level to make my math easier. Three rounds per combat, short rest after every two combats. Slots are 4/3/3.

Round 1: Sorcerer Twin's Polymorph (3 pts, 3rd level spell), Wizard uses Fireball
Round 2: Both caster's use Ice Knife (1st level spell)
Round 3: both casters use a cantrip

(Sorcerer 3pts, 3/3/2 Wizard 3/3/2)

Round 1: Sorcerer Twin's Polymorph (3pts, 3rd level spell), Wizard uses Haste
Round 2: Both Caster's use Ice Knife (1st level spell)
Round 3: both casters use a cantrip

Short rest, sorcerer gains nothing. Wizard gets back a 3rd level spell. Sorcerer converts a 2nd level spell and a 1st level spell into points

(Sorcerer 3pts, 1/2/1, Wizard 2/3/2)

Repeat second fight (saving space)

Sorcerer is down to only 2 second level spells. Wizard has a 1st, three second and a third left.

We are theoritically only half way through an adventuring day. And sure, the Sorcerer has done the equivalent of 6 third level polymorph spells, but the wizard is going to get four third level spells, and have a lot more left in the tank. Also, we didn't do any casting outside of combat, where the sorcerer would have had to spend spell slots and the wizard likely just used ritual casting and saved their slots. Additionally, the sorcerer has been using class abilities (metamagic) this entire time, but the wizard hasn't. They might still have portents or other subclass abilities to bring to bear on upcoming fights.

And finally, we can't judge this from just a simple resource tracking, but it is fair to ask if all those twin polymorphs were necessary. Did we twin at a time when using just a single spell would have been just as effective?

Again, twin spell is a great ability, but that and Quicken are about the only metamagics sorcerers take. Nothing else is as good, and even at their best, over the course of a full day of casting, the Wizard is likely to end with more to give, and the sorcerer is going to be running on fumes by the mid-way point.





Yes, exactly. By limiting sorcerer spells known so much and only having a few valid options for metamagic, all sorcerers end up playing very similarly. The "born with powers unique to my blood" class has more carbon copies than the "studied magic in school" class.



I still don't know what other features you see in the Divine Soul that are worth mentioning, I covered them all and actually, excepting the level 1 ability to expand their spells, they are very comparable to the dragon features. Both even get wings at level 14, so until you get to level 18, I'm curious what abilities you see that I'm not.




So why are you trying to say that there isn't a problem with sorcerers? According to your own points they have the worst subclass diversity, the worst build diversity, and the least amount of incentive to play them more than once.

If your entire argument is "but twin spell once you get 3rd level spells is strong" then, frankly, whoopie. Most casters are altering the field of battle when they get 3rd level spells, and they have other stuff to do besides. One trick does not a class make, they need more.

Side Tangent: I actually wrote a fix of the Banneret (Purple Dragon Knight) that I am kind of proud of. It is such a cool idea that was executed so poorly in the original book. Also the assassin isn't that bad. A lot of DM's homebrew the surprise rules, and it has a lot of social abilities as well that can be incredible in the right camapaign.

I'm a little late to the party here, but are we ignoring quickened spells stacked with cantrips? A few of the sorcerors I've seen played used quicken to dramatically increase their damage in tough fights.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm a little late to the party here, but are we ignoring quickened spells stacked with cantrips? A few of the sorcerors I've seen played used quicken to dramatically increase their damage in tough fights.

Not ignoring it, but it ties into the same problem.

Sorcerers get one maybe two two tricks that are useful and burns all of their daily resources. Most of the time though when talking about "optimal" sorcerer builds Quicken doesn't get a lot of showtime, because all it does is allow an extra cantrip most of the time.

 

[Redwizard007]

Not ignoring it, but it ties into the same problem.

Sorcerers get one maybe two two tricks that are useful and burns all of their daily resources. Most of the time though when talking about "optimal" sorcerer builds Quicken doesn't get a lot of showtime, because all it does is allow an extra cantrip most of the time.

Does it use their resources? Sure. Is it a great advantage of the class? OMFG yes! IMO its actually one of the best metamagics, especially for multi-class sorcerers. Want to gish? This is the best way to cast and attack in the same turn. Want to disengage and cast? Bingo. Some mook still standing after your fireball? Quickened EB should take care of that. Feel like abusing Witchbolt/Eyebite/Sunbeam/Call Lightning/etc cast it quickened and use your action to activate it again, or use your action to use (not cast) Whirlwind or Telekinesis and then destroy your enemies with something requiring a Dex save (quickened Disintegrate for one.) On top of all that we have the lowly cantrips that you mentioned. Note that they key off of character level. That means that a multi class sorcerer deals just as much damage as a single class sorcerer and 1d10 per tier is nothing to sneeze at.

I maintain that the sorcerer doesn't need a power boost like more sorcery points. It wants some bonus spells that tie into its theme but it doesn't really need that either. It also really wants the ability to reskin damage types, but again can be incredibly useful without them. All it needs are ways to differentiate one sorcerer from another, and it doesn't really have that right now.

Edit: spelling

 

[Asisreo]

I will say, I haven't read the entirety of this thread. However, I think Font of Magic gets dismissed far too often.

It's not just extra spell slots or metamagic, it's converting spellslots.

Some spells are unique at higher levels and there's no way to replicate them with a spell of a lower level. At level 3, a sorcerer could cast 4 2nd-level spells which is more often than a wizard, even with his arcane recovery.

Even at 2nd level, they can cast 4 1st-level spells without taking a short rest. Things get good at 9th level since a sorcerer can cast 4 5th level spells by then. A wizard can only cast 2 5th level spells and must take a short rest at some point.

At very high levels, you can sacrifice your low-mid level spellslots to enhance your very strong spells with metamagic. A heightened Dominate Monster is nothing to sneeze at and a quickened wish at the expense of a second level spell is almost nothing.

So at low levels, metamagic isn't truly amazing but you can keep the heat coming with multiple high level spell slots, more than a wizard and with less short-rest dependency since it's apparently common to run adventures with 0 short rests.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Moved things out of order a little bit

IMO its actually one of the best metamagics, especially for multi-class sorcerers.

See, I really hate multi-classing as a defense for Sorcerers. To me it is almost identical to the Divine Soul argument "Sorcerers are fine as long as they are not sorcerers. " If that is the case, then the sorcerer is not fine.

Want to gish? This is the best way to cast and attack in the same turn.

Some mook still standing after your fireball? Quickened EB should take care of that.

The first one falls directly into that multi-class issue. With no armor and lack of access to good finesse weapons, pure sorcerers suck at melee combat. You might be able to pull it off by spamming shocking grasp as a dragon sorcerer, but you are so much more effective at range.

And, while EB is great, not a sorcerer spell. Sure a Quickened EB is devastating, but you need a way to actually get it, and unless you go warlock, you can't get the mod to it.

This is also a good point to remind you that Quicken has a static cost of 2 points. When you get it at level 3, you can do this once per day without eating spell slots. It isn't even until 6th level that you can do it three times a day. If you want to build with reliance on attacking and casting the same turn, then you are going to be dealing with 5-minute workdays or no high level spells.

On top of all that we have the lowly cantrips that you mentioned. Note that they key off of character level. That means that a multi class sorcerer deals just as much damage as a single class sorcerer and 1d10 per tier is nothing to sneeze at.

Sure, sounds great, I love defending the sorcerer by explaining how more than three levels of sorcerer is unnecessary because you can do just as much damage with their at-will cantrips by leveling in literally anything else.

Want to disengage and cast? Bingo.

Sure, a decent use for it, but again, cost. Is a third of all my metamagic worth casting that spell after disengaging? Why didn't I just cast it in melee if it is a spell with a save?

Feel like abusing Witchbolt/Eyebite/Sunbeam/Call Lightning/etc cast it quickened and use your action to activate it again, or use your action to use (not cast) Whirlwind or Telekinesis and then destroy your enemies with something requiring a Dex save (quickened Disintegrate for one.)

See, this is actually the best use of it in my opinion, taking spells that require an action to use and getting a second spell effect that same turn. The whirlwind combo is a high level one, but immensely powerful if you can pull it off. Of course, you can also just use your turn to cast Whirlwind, which should restrain by the start of your next turn, then disintegrate on your next turn. No Quicken required.

I maintain that the sorcerer doesn't need a power boost like more sorcery points. It wants some bonus spells that tie into its theme but it doesn't really need that either. It also really wants the ability to reskin damage types, but again can be incredibly useful without them. All it needs are ways to differentiate one sorcerer from another, and it doesn't really have that right now.

And I maintain that this view is short sighted, and tends to only look at a single round or combo and declare that enough. Sure, your Sorcerer 3/Warlock 3 build just quickened Eldritch Blast for 4d10+12 damage, let's add Hex for an extra 4d6 damage on top.

And next turn you only have 1 sorcerery point left, so if you want to do it a second time you are either going to eat your second Pact Magic slot, or you are going to start eating your sorcerer slots. And you might be 2 rounds into the first combat, leaving you with a possible 16 more rounds of combat to go over the course of the day, and you are already needing to start burning yourself down.

And that is one of the best courses for Sorcerer. A full sorcerer would likely have only done 4d10 damage, no mod, and used a third of all their points, Which again, hey, that is useful, but you start running on fumes quickly.

And, if you consume spell slots, then you are falling behind other casters in their spells per day, heck, even using metamagic at all can start that downslide.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I will say, I haven't read the entirety of this thread. However, I think Font of Magic gets dismissed far too often.

It's not just extra spell slots or metamagic, it's converting spellslots.

Some spells are unique at higher levels and there's no way to replicate them with a spell of a lower level. At level 3, a sorcerer could cast 4 2nd-level spells which is more often than a wizard, even with his arcane recovery.

Even at 2nd level, they can cast 4 1st-level spells without taking a short rest. Things get good at 9th level since a sorcerer can cast 4 5th level spells by then. A wizard can only cast 2 5th level spells and must take a short rest at some point.

At very high levels, you can sacrifice your low-mid level spellslots to enhance your very strong spells with metamagic. A heightened Dominate Monster is nothing to sneeze at and a quickened wish at the expense of a second level spell is almost nothing.

So at low levels, metamagic isn't truly amazing but you can keep the heat coming with multiple high level spell slots, more than a wizard and with less short-rest dependency since it's apparently common to run adventures with 0 short rests.

Sure, if a sorcerer never uses Metamagic (their defining feature) and the Wizard never gets a short rest, the Sorcerer can cast more spells.

And, at higher levels if you want to not use your low level spells (which are sometimes still useful, ie shield or detect magic) you can cast more big spells than the wizard does.

I'll note:

4 second level spells required you use all but one of your first level spells. You got 5 spells for the day. The wizard got 6 assuming they did not short rest and 7 if they did.

At ninth level, to cast four 5th level spells, you spent all your points, converted all of your first, second, and a third level spell. You gave up all but 5 spell slots for four actions.

The math seems to always be "What do I choose to lose" as a sorcerer. You can never just do something cool, it always has to be at the cost of something else you could have otherwise done.

 

[Asisreo]

Sure, if a sorcerer never uses Metamagic (their defining feature) and the Wizard never gets a short rest, the Sorcerer can cast more spells.

And, at higher levels if you want to not use your low level spells (which are sometimes still useful, ie shield or detect magic) you can cast more big spells than the wizard does.

I'll note:

4 second level spells required you use all but one of your first level spells. You got 5 spells for the day. The wizard got 6 assuming they did not short rest and 7 if they did.

At ninth level, to cast four 5th level spells, you spent all your points, converted all of your first, second, and a third level spell. You gave up all but 5 spell slots for four actions.

The math seems to always be "What do I choose to lose" as a sorcerer. You can never just do something cool, it always has to be at the cost of something else you could have otherwise done.

You can also think of it as a type of versatility. You can choose to make 4 5th-level spells but there's nothing forcing you to. You can convert spellslots to metamagic, but there's nothing forcing you to. You can make your 5th-level spells into 2 1st-level spells.

But there's no commitment.

A wizard must commit on their short rest, a sorcerer can make these decisions as they go.

Sometimes, you'll need a 3rd 5th-level spell this encounter, no time for a short rest. Sorcerers can have that, wizards can't.

Sometimes, you don't need 2 second level spell as badly as you need to twin polymorph your two frontliners. But sometimes you do. You get the decision on-the-spot. You're a much more flexible caster than a wizard.

 

[Redwizard007]

You can also think of it as a type of versatility. You can choose to make 4 5th-level spells but there's nothing forcing you to. You can convert spellslots to metamagic, but there's nothing forcing you to. You can make your 5th-level spells into 2 1st-level spells.

But there's no commitment.

A wizard must commit on their short rest, a sorcerer can make these decisions as they go.

Sometimes, you'll need a 3rd 5th-level spell this encounter, no time for a short rest. Sorcerers can have that, wizards can't.

Sometimes, you don't need 2 second level spell as badly as you need to twin polymorph your two frontliners. But sometimes you do. You get the decision on-the-spot. You're a much more flexible caster than a wizard.

This.

I also want to beat on Chaosmancer for getting stuck on the multi-class advantages I mentioned and not realizing that you have all the same options as a single class sorcerer just with different names. Don't want to use EB? I bet you can find a flame based cantrip that deals the same damage and scales the same... my point wasn't that you MUST multi-class with sorcerer, its that you CAN, or you can gish hard as a githyanki or hobgoblin... whatever.

If you don't like choices there are better spellcasters for you. If you like deciding if/when/how to blow up at the cost of spamming cantrips for a couple fights then the sorcerer gives you incredible options.