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D&D 5E Sorcerer Changes

And sorcerers dominate the combat half. Because it's okay that not all spellcasters are wizards.

I do actually agree with a lot of your points in this post, but with respect, FIRE specced Dragon sorcerers and Devine Soul sorcerers dominate combat, with an arguable debate to be had for Lightning Dragon/Storm sorcerers. All other builds are lackluster, mainly because...

Witchbolt is a unique type of spell that does autodamage after one successful hit. It's garbage.

...of this. Not all spells are created equal. Notice how not all the elements even get a spell for every level, even after the Elemental Evil/Xanathar spells got added, and even then not all the spells of every element are actually mechanically good. And even when new spells come out in new books, there is often more spells that make the wizard list but not the sorcerer.

C'mon, you're so close. Metamagic and font of magic is meant to be considered alongside each other. They are the two sides of the same coin that you get to choose. Like Ki and flurry vs step of the wind vs stunning strike.

The difference being that KI regenerates back on a short rest while sorcery points do not, resulting in a monk being able to not care if they spend all their ki points in a single fight (or just half if they wish to be conservative) because they can just take a nap or lunch break and gain them back. I see fighters often treat their abilities the same way. The number of times a fighter has said in our games "well, I might as well second wind because we're taking a short rest anyway!" is quite high.

Meanwhile, the sorcerer who spends his spell points this way severely under performs after the first encounter (which granted they do at least shine in) and may end up being completely unable to use his class features if they have a spell point cost and they were not relevant for that fight. And the sorcerer can't have the simple fix of just giving his sorcery points back on short rest to fix this issue because he can then exploit font of magic to regain spell slots to absurd degrees.

And then whenever we start a thread trying to figure out a houserule fix that we find optimal for this problem, people come swarming out of the woodwork every time claiming "sorcerers are fine because I played one specific fire build that spams fireball! or the divine soul support build (that conveniently again doesn't use spell points in any of their abilities except for a reactive healing ability). get over it!" until the original thread conversation gets lost in hateful ad hominems and emotional outbursts caused by text being an absolutely terrible method for conveying meaning, especially if one side is using a mobile app that causes the text box to reset in the d*** window EVERY time one has to erase a letter due to autocorrect + touchscreen keyboards being incompatible with any human hands other than those of a child!

...but I am digress in a meaningless tangent that will no doubt be just a random idiosyncrasy of mine with a hatred of all things android or apple. Give me a real keyboard or give me death!

...again, rant aside.

The problem is that it just doesn't feel fun to use what is [presumably] supposed to be your primary class feature at best once per fight (assuming the adventuring day guidelines), and even then that is contingent on either selecting a lower cost metamagic or are converting spell slots sorcery points to do it. Nor does it feel good to pick two metamagics and then be stuck with them for possibly the rest of the campaign (if it doesn't go higher than 9th level), especially if you end up picking ones that don't suit the campaign...

Is resource management such an infringement on your playstyle that you can't fathom opportunity cost? Is making choices so egregiously flawed design that you think sorcery points should only be metamagic? And that's it?

Forgive me if this was not your intention with this reply, but as his original post here referred to metamagics being more or less powerful in different types of campaigns, I do think that opportunity cost should not apply in the case of campaigns. Any DM who does not either cater his campaign to the builds his players have presented him, or warn his players that some of their choices might not be as useful in the game he is intending to run is frankly doing his players a disservice. I shalt go so far as to claim that he is going against the "one true fun" but I would be absolutely pissed if I was a player in his game if I wanted to play a specific character build and he gave me no warning that it would effectively be useless in his game. That goes beyond just sorcerer. If I rolled a kickass undead slayer and the DM is like "oh, too bad, there are no zombies in my world!" or a wizard who wanted to research rare magic and the DM is like "yeah...spellbooks/scrolls? They don't exist!" or a magical sweet-talking warlock/bard who finds out too late that the game is now heavily themed around creatures immune to charm.

Nearly every class has caveats like that. The first question every ranger should ask is "what sort of enemies will we be fighting and in what sort of terrain will be doing it?" (or alternatively: "do you allow the Revised Ranger and if not, what can we change about it to let me play it at your table?"). Every rogue player should ask "how to you interpret stealth rules?" The wizard should ask "can I find spells in the world to add to my book?" The sorcerer should ask "Do you houserule that one can counterspell a metamagic subtle spell?" For me an answer of 'yes' to that last question means I shall NEVER play a sorcerer with them as a DM. It's about setting clear expectations between the player and DM.

Even setting the social contract issue aside, there is another reason why campaign specific abilities are poor design (and are also brought up often in threads about the ranger and Favored Enemy/Terrain): a player shouldn't have to beg the DM for 'hints' about what the campaign will be like in order for their character to get to use their abilities. I'm not going to argue that sorcerers are the only class that suffers from this sort of problem or that they are even the worst (cough ranger cough), but choosing the wrong metamagic is hardly a forgiving choice.
 
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Asisreo

Patron Badass
I do actually agree with a lot of your points in this post, but with respect, FIRE specced Dragon sorcerers and Devine Soul sorcerers dominate combat, with an arguable debate to be had for Lightning Dragon/Storm sorcerers. All other builds are lackluster, mainly because...



...of this. Not all spells are created equal. Notice how not all the elements even get a spell for every level, even after the Elemental Evil/Xanathar spells got added, and even then not all the spells of every element are actually mechanically good. And even when new spells come out in new books, there is often more spells that make the wizard list but not the sorcerer.
Honestly, I think the only chromatic sorcerer that suffers when it matters is a Acid Sorcerer. The reason being that by level 6, you have 5th level spells coming up on 7th. Ice storm is a fine spell, it has more volume than a fireball so more creatures are possible to fit in the area. When you cast Ray of Frost and get 2d8+4 but also slows an enemy by 10ft, it can be a quite good tactic. Especially if you're trying to run away from something dashing in melee.

Poison sorcerers have a hard time not being resisted but they have a very easy time resisting incoming damage. More so than fire sorcerers, since even mundane beasts can do alot of poison.

Acid is a bit similar but I don't think it's common enough.

I like wild sorcerer. Comparing to draconic, it's features seem underwhelming. The Wild Magic is DM-dependent and Tides is less so, but it's fun being very random. They don't get the health or the AC but the AC can be almost matched with leather armor or actually matched for 8 hours at the expense of a 1st level spell.

Bend Luck is quite a good ability, I can see why it's 2 sorcery points. It's cheaper than heightened and can be more effective at the cost of a reaction and uncertainty, but it's like a passive guidance/resistance/bless/bane without concentration at a whim. If you've made it to 14th level as a wild magic sorcerer, I suspect controlled chaos would be of much use to you. Spell bombardment's not the best, really, but it's passive and gets better when used with a very large AoE spell.

One way you can ensure your Wild Sorcerer gets to use his feature is by explaining in session 0 that when he casts a spell, they'll ask the DM if they can roll if they want to. The DM can then explain they like the idea or they don't but most DM's will agree. You can also ask if he can allow you to pick when can roll the metamagic, which does bring wild magic waay up. I would probably allow this, if not for the first option, would you?
The difference being that KI regenerates back on a short rest while sorcery points do not, resulting in a monk being able to not care if they spend all their ki points in a single fight (or just half if they wish to be conservative) because they can just take a nap or lunch break and gain them back. I see fighters often treat their abilities the same way. The number of times a fighter has said in our games "well, I might as well second wind because we're taking a short rest anyway!" is quite high.

Meanwhile, the sorcerer who spends his spell points this way severely under performs after the first encounter (which granted they do at least shine in) and may end up being completely unable to use his class features if they have a spell point cost and they were not relevant for that fight. And the sorcerer can't have the simple fix of just giving his sorcery points back on short rest to fix this issue because he can then exploit font of magic to regain spell slots to absurd degrees.
I just don't see how giving more freedom with their spell slots and sorcery points are a bad thing. Sure, they can blow them all away, but saying that a feature is bad because a player can't properly pace himself doesn't seem right. A dirty solution would be to limit the sorcery points and spells they can use in a combat, but they should have the opportunity to expend it all if they want.

If they want to be selfish or greedy, then I don't think that allowing them to be at their own detriment is a good argument for why a feature is bad or underperforms. It also feels like there's enough margin of error to make a mistake and over apply and still have enough gas to keep running. I don't think there's any situation where you can go full power for 1 round and lose all your metamagic abilities. There's still a way after round 1, and a sorcerer player can pace themselves accordingly.

And apparently campaigns run 2-3 deadly encounters a day anyways, so this should push the sorcerer's resource expenditure even lower.

I'm also believe that if you do end up using all your spell slots and sorcery points, it's for the better. Used sorcery points means they changed the way a battle was fought and may have made it easier. Unused sorcery points did nothing when you finish a short rest.

And then whenever we start a thread trying to figure out a houserule fix that we find optimal for this problem, people come swarming out of the woodwork every time claiming "sorcerers are fine because I played one specific fire build that spams fireball! or the divine soul support build (that conveniently again doesn't use spell points in any of their abilities except for a reactive healing ability). get over it!" until the original thread conversation gets lost in hateful ad hominems and emotional outbursts caused by text being an absolutely terrible method for conveying meaning
I understand that you want to fix what seems broken to you, but I don't want people to get the wrong idea about sorcerer class. I've never actually played a divine soul sorcerer and I've played both draconic and wild magic. That's just what I do, I playtest these classes in long-ish campaigns to see how I'd actually like them, and I think that sorcerers are strong overall.

Sorcerers are spellcasters with the most base cantrips, proficiency in CON saves, Leather armor proficiency, the abilities to enhance spells, the ability to convert spellslots. They have alot going for them from their base chassis. Reducing them to only metamagic feels roughly the same as reducing a bard to "horny bard" or reducing wizards to "only fireball."

And with a wizard's fireball, it's good but if someone said wizards suck because they're reliant on fireballs, people would come out of the woodworks explaining why that's wrong too. Because a wizard doesn't have to be and there's plenty of good uses for a 3rd level spell than just fireball.

, especially if one side is using a mobile app that causes the text box to reset in the d*** window EVERY time one has to erase a letter due to autocorrect + touchscreen keyboards being incompatible with any human hands other than those of a child!

...but I am digress in a meaningless tangent that will no doubt be just a random idiosyncrasy of mine with a hatred of all things android or apple. Give me a real keyboard or give me death!

...again, rant aside.

The problem is that it just doesn't feel fun to use what is [presumably] supposed to be your primary class feature at best once per fight (assuming the adventuring day guidelines), and even then that is contingent on either selecting a lower cost metamagic or are converting spell slots sorcery points to do it. Nor does it feel good to pick two metamagics and then be stuck with them for possibly the rest of the campaign (if it doesn't go higher than 9th level), especially if you end up picking ones that don't suit the campaign...
But who are you telling it isn't fun. Are you telling me I didn't have fun playing sorcerer? This is what I'm talking about. If I was a bright-eyed D&D player excited to play a class that can do high-level spells alot more than any other class and manipulate the weave's influence on those spells, I'll look up sorcerer online. Despite it being the perfect match for me, I'll see how people say it's "unfun" or "problematic" and it'll influence my fun and might cause me to not even play the sorcerer that I wanted to play.

It doesn't feel good to have no armor proficiency and no con saves but it's balance for a wizard. Wizards are weak against martials and other spellcasters, especially at lower levels but that doesn't make them bad.

I haven't regretted my metamagic selection, nor have I felt limited by it. They always felt like an extra thing rather then a requirement every turn. Maybe I have alot of system mastery and can work with different classes much easier than others.

Forgive me if this was not your intention with this reply, but as his original post here referred to metamagics being more or less powerful in different types of campaigns, I do think that opportunity cost should not apply in the case of campaigns. Any DM who does not either cater his campaign to the builds his players have presented him, or warn his players that some of their choices might not be as useful in the game he is intending to run is frankly doing his players a disservice. I shalt go so far as to claim that he is going against the "one true fun" but I would be absolutely pissed if I was a player in his game if I wanted to play a specific character build and he gave me no warning that it would effectively be useless in his game. That goes beyond just sorcerer. If I rolled a kickass undead slayer and the DM is like "oh, too bad, there are no zombies in my world!" or a wizard who wanted to research rare magic and the DM is like "yeah...spellbooks/scrolls? They don't exist!" or a magical sweet-talking warlock/bard who finds out too late that the game is now heavily themed around creatures immune to charm.

Nearly every class has caveats like that. The first question every ranger should ask is "what sort of enemies will we be fighting and in what sort of terrain will be doing it?" (or alternatively: "do you allow the Revised Ranger and if not, what can we change about it to let me play it at your table?"). Every rogue player should ask "how to you interpret stealth rules?" The wizard should ask "can I find spells in the world to add to my book?" The sorcerer should ask "Do you houserule that one can counterspell a metamagic subtle spell?" For me an answer of 'yes' to that last question means I shall NEVER play a sorcerer with them as a DM. It's about setting clear expectations between the player and DM.

Even setting the social contract issue aside, there is another reason why campaign specific abilities are poor design (and are also brought up often in threads about the ranger and Favored Enemy/Terrain): a player shouldn't have to beg the DM for 'hints' about what the campaign will be like in order for their character to get to use their abilities. I'm not going to argue that sorcerers are the only class that suffers from this sort of problem or that they are even the worst (cough ranger cough), but choosing the wrong metamagic is hardly a forgiving choice.
I don't know, it feels like the game is "cooperative" and "DM & Player storytelling" until people talk about classes, where suddenly we must protect ourselves against the bad DM. As a DM, I really want players to ask questions about their specific abilities.

I remember how my skills with exploration grew tremendously because a player wanted to play a Ranger. They asked about my setting's geography, it's lore, it's creatures in a way that I didn't think would need to be fleshed out. Now, my world has multiple terrain types even in predominant areas, where every location has something worthwhile and story related to explore. The grassland ranger can get lost in the 2-mile radius forest between the grasslands and coast and can spend an hour or two in there, but they took the detour because of the rumored elvish bow (flavored +2 bow) which can show both as a powerful weapon and a token of trust for the high elf court. They might get lost or ambushed, but they place value in that bow, so they'll risk it. (The other party members place value in the bow as well.)

This stuff makes me excited as a DM and makes my player's ability never worthless or excessive and they love it. Some kobolds know thieves' cant. Among the huge shelf of books is a spellbook with a couple of useful spells for the wizard. A disease has festered on your patron. I put these things into my campaign before I even see their characters because I like to see the solutions some players have. They can keep pushing forward in the story, too.


I have alot of respect for the designers. Many people look at them like they're incompetent or that they didn't read the PHB themselves. I've looked in-depth in this system and there's alot of brilliant decisions in this system. From the lower than average CR hp, but defensive features that boost effective HP so that combats don't drag too far out. To long rests allowing casting spells for less than 1 hour while spells slots returning at the very end, so that leftover spell slots can be used right before the end of the long rest for long duration spells like mage armor or Aid.

Ignore metamagic completely for a second, pretend it doesn't exist. In fact, no sorcery points, only font of magic conversions. The sorcerer's unique ability to manipulate spell slots is now what sets it apart from other spellcasters and it's brilliant. You can turn 3 1st-level spells into invisibility rather than use another 2nd-level slot.

That's interesting and unique. If you don't consider it "competing" with another resource, it already is a unique ability. What's brilliant is that you probably wouldn't use this for something to upcast damage because it takes a while to convert while you could've just casted the spell 3 times, but unique second-level options or when upcasting does something more than damage like fog cloud (not recommended).

And then, a sorcerer can convert a 4th level spell into 2 1st level spells. In case you don't need a 4th level shield, you need 2 first level shields.

Now, give sorcerers a feature that facilitates the movement from lower spellslot <-> higher spellslots using points, give them extra. Sounds pretty good? Remember, they're also the same caster with CON saves and either higher HP/AC or can gain advantage against saves of their choosing.

Now, give them even more abilities. The ability to cast enhanced spells, but not just one enhancement, they get 2. And they can choose out of a list of 8 preferred ones. One of which is so powerful, giving disadvantage on saves (some of which can end an encounter) that it should be 3 points while another can allow someone to concentrate on 2 targets at once with haste.

This is what I mean when I say I don't consider metamagic as the defining trait of sorcerers. They're a nice bonus but the spell slot manipulation is so unique and powerful for a spellcaster.
 

For sorcerer the engine is good, the ergonomic is crappy
The UA class variant try to solve this, it’s a good lead to help sorcerer.
personally I would like a feature that allow using unselected meta magic at a higher cost. Say 1 more.
 

Honestly, I think the only chromatic sorcerer that suffers when it matters is a Acid Sorcerer. The reason being that by level 6, you have 5th level spells coming up on 7th. Ice storm is a fine spell, it has more volume than a fireball so more creatures are possible to fit in the area. When you cast Ray of Frost and get 2d8+4 but also slows an enemy by 10ft, it can be a quite good tactic. Especially if you're trying to run away from something dashing in melee.

Poison sorcerers have a hard time not being resisted but they have a very easy time resisting incoming damage. More so than fire sorcerers, since even mundane beasts can do alot of poison.

Acid is a bit similar but I don't think it's common enough.

While I do agree that the situation is not as dire in a post Elemental Evil/Xanathar's world, there is still a problem. Ice storm is in fact a good spell in the right situation, but by the time they get it, fire and lightning sorcerers have already been using their respective signature blasts for two levels already, which can be a big deal if the campaign never reaches past 9th level. I've both played and ran in campaigns in which the party was 6th level or so for almost 6 months to a year. Said campaigns are quite fun, but could be frustrating to certain builds because of it. With ice storm in particular, the spell also will outright piss off your party members royally if you have any melee in your group, and while having to carefully aim aoe spells is nothing that is just an ice element or sorcerer problem, lack of instant damage spells of every element for every level is something that gets noticed by players. As a DM I can remedy this by giving players magic items or homebrewing alternative metamagics/feats to allow them to alter spell elements on the fly, but but RAW dragon sorcerers are heavily incentivized to only pick one element of spells and frankly do not have enough spells known to go off script too much if their particular element is lackluster. I'll concede that only really acid or poison is arguably unplayable though.

I like wild sorcerer. Comparing to draconic, it's features seem underwhelming. The Wild Magic is DM-dependent and Tides is less so, but it's fun being very random. They don't get the health or the AC but the AC can be almost matched with leather armor or actually matched for 8 hours at the expense of a 1st level spell.

Bend Luck is quite a good ability, I can see why it's 2 sorcery points. It's cheaper than heightened and can be more effective at the cost of a reaction and uncertainty, but it's like a passive guidance/resistance/bless/bane without concentration at a whim. If you've made it to 14th level as a wild magic sorcerer, I suspect controlled chaos would be of much use to you. Spell bombardment's not the best, really, but it's passive and gets better when used with a very large AoE spell.

One way you can ensure your Wild Sorcerer gets to use his feature is by explaining in session 0 that when he casts a spell, they'll ask the DM if they can roll if they want to. The DM can then explain they like the idea or they don't but most DM's will agree. You can also ask if he can allow you to pick when can roll the metamagic, which does bring wild magic waay up. I would probably allow this, if not for the first option, would you?

This DM dependence of rules interpretation is precisely why I label the archetype lackluster though. Yes, it can be great fun with the right DM. One of my regular sorcerer players loves it to the point that I regularly find reasons to include the wild magic table as must as I can. It can also the weakest archetype if the DM never calls for wild surge rolls.

I just don't see how giving more freedom with their spell slots and sorcery points are a bad thing. Sure, they can blow them all away, but saying that a feature is bad because a player can't properly pace himself doesn't seem right. A dirty solution would be to limit the sorcery points and spells they can use in a combat, but they should have the opportunity to expend it all if they want.

Again, what I want my involvement to be in these threads is to find solutions to this precise problem of preventing font of magic abuse on short rest sorcery points houserule and identifying other potential concerns, or to talk about other suggestions myself or others have tried and actually playtested. I don't think the sorcerer even needs much. A few bonus origin spells known [which again if you read my original posts I talk about how I feel giving them cleric style at first directly led to my sorcerer knowing nearly twice the spells of the warlock and more than what a wizard would prepare as well, and led me to conclude that giving a bonus spell each odd level chosen from a list of 10 1st-5th level origin spells more like the warlock was a better idea], an extra metamagic at 7th level, and ....something to help with spell point regeneration and I feel we are there. The problem is figuring out that last point.

Instead I have to deal with the same "just play a fire sorcerer or devine soul! that's what sorcerers are!" or "twin spell, subtle, and quicken are great therefore every other metamagic is fine!" comments in...every...thread related to this. I'm not saying that other class related threads (or just any thread in general really) don't have similar issues that bloat up their threads because they do, but they each have their own "fanatics" defending them as well. I might gripe offhandedly about the 17 warlord threads but I don't go seeking them out to tell them their thoughts are dumb and they should feel bad. It's a toxic culture of internet forums in general and it needs to cleansed like the cancer it is. People need to be respectful of each other.

Another step towards something that I feel really evens the playing field for the limited spells known for a sorcerer, the unearthed arcana class variant that lets spells known classes switch out one spell on each long rest. My sorcerer player has said that she loves this change more than anything else and it really helped her issues with the class. This is the same person, mind you who says she doesn't like playing prepared casters like wizards or clerics because she feels they have too many choices and it leaves her with decision paralysis. Interpret that as you will. I just hope it sees official print.

I understand that you want to fix what seems broken to you, but I don't want people to get the wrong idea about sorcerer class. I've never actually played a divine soul sorcerer and I've played both draconic and wild magic. That's just what I do, I playtest these classes in long-ish campaigns to see how I'd actually like them, and I think that sorcerers are strong overall.

Sorcerers are spellcasters with the most base cantrips, proficiency in CON saves, Leather armor proficiency, the abilities to enhance spells, the ability to convert spellslots. They have alot going for them from their base chassis. Reducing them to only metamagic feels roughly the same as reducing a bard to "horny bard" or reducing wizards to "only fireball."

This is a fair point. People should probably be more clear in stating what is their opinion and be aware of using authoritative language. I myself am guilty of this. Though I have also seen plenty of people preface their threads with things akin to "I get that this is all my opinion and that not everyone agrees that class x or ability y is in need of fixing, let's just keep the thread to feedback of possible tweaks for those who feel this opinion may hold weight and the comments of It's fine! to a minimum" and the threads STILL get bogged down not 5 pages with two idiots arguing over whether the original topic is even a valid subject of discussion in the first place. Again toxic forum culture.

And with a wizard's fireball, it's good but if someone said wizards suck because they're reliant on fireballs, people would come out of the woodworks explaining why that's wrong too. Because a wizard doesn't have to be and there's plenty of good uses for a 3rd level spell than just fireball.

You'd be hardpressed to make that claim though, given that evoker wizards have the best fireball out of any fireballs by a wide margin, and all other fireballs are still blatantly overpowered for their level due to WOTC feeling it was a good decision to make certain spells "iconic" and therefore OP. sigh But that is a whole other topic of discussion. Point granted that one could make arguments of any class combined with any ability and still receive toxic criticism though.

But who are you telling it isn't fun. Are you telling me I didn't have fun playing sorcerer? This is what I'm talking about. If I was a bright-eyed D&D player excited to play a class that can do high-level spells alot more than any other class and manipulate the weave's influence on those spells, I'll look up sorcerer online. Despite it being the perfect match for me, I'll see how people say it's "unfun" or "problematic" and it'll influence my fun and might cause me to not even play the sorcerer that I wanted to play.

Again, I am guilty of speaking authoritatively when I should not have. You are welcome to have fun and I do not mean to diminish it, but by that same regard, I have had multiple players and myself playing multiple sorcerers all express independently similar gripes about that class that all really boiled down to two key issues: not enough spells known and not enough sorcery points to get through the day. They all stated that trying out some of my proposed changes made the class feel more fun. Interpret that as you will. I still also am of a personal belief that sorcerers not getting ritual casting is a glaring oversight by the developers. They are the ONLY full caster [I'd argue that only tomelocks are the only full casters for warlock and that is sort of their design intent, but this is kind of a semantics problem, granted] whom does not get it as a feature and while again comparing abilities on a single basis is flawed giving the sorcerer ritual casting like a bard and adding a few more ritual spells to their list in general hardly a broken sorcerer makes.

You bring up newer players (at least that what I assume you mean by "bright-eyed" as that is the original meaning of that phrase). New players are actually a big concern of mine. One the underlying issues I have with the sorcerer is that as written now it is a deceptively punishing class for new players. One wrong spell selection and they are stuck with it until they level up (which again in some campaigns/groups could be quite some time). One wrong metamagic choice? They may never get the option to get another in many campaigns. There is a certain pair of youtubers (Dungeon Dudes) who did a video on best classes for newer players and one of the points one of them brought was precisely this when they had a debate as to whether sorcerers or wizards were more forgiving of new players.

It doesn't feel good to have no armor proficiency and no con saves but it's balance for a wizard. Wizards are weak against martials and other spellcasters, especially at lower levels but that doesn't make them bad.

This is admittedly a minor mistake on your part and I do not mean to be overly nitpicky, but as you mentioned it multiple times now, sorcerers by RAW do NOT have light armor proficiency nor (what I think you seem to think based on the implication of some of their comments) more health than a wizard (excluding dragon sorcerer). I've seen a common houseruling of giving sorcerers d8 hit dice, light armor proficiency, and simple weapons, and it is a change I've considered due to having a player specifically tell me he chose warlock over sorcerer precisely because he wanted more health and was considering using weapons on occasion (he also considered pact of the blade for awhile, though ultimately setting for tome). My current sorcerer is typically a martial player and has definitely noticed the difference in health and AC with her sorcerer as well (albeit this is more a musing than indication of problem).

What I think would help is if at minimum sorcerers had simple weapons. It would mean that dragon sorcerers could be a decent gish, and I'd be all for a subclass like blade warlocks or bladesinger wizard for sorcerers. And yes, sorcerers DO get Con save proficiency, and that is in fact nice for concentrating on spells, but they also loose out on wisdom save proficiency and have little incentive to have a high wisdom, leaving them vulnerable to other things. Ask any fighter if they feel at times having a low wisdom is a vulnerability to certain spells. The save proficiencies are ultimately a trade off and that is good design.

I haven't regretted my metamagic selection, nor have I felt limited by it. They always felt like an extra thing rather then a requirement every turn. Maybe I have alot of system mastery and can work with different classes much easier than others.

As I said before, the sorcerer is a class that requires significantly more system mastery to perform than a lot of others, excluding very few specific builds a new player could luck into (fire/lightning dragon and divine soul). Letting the sorcerer switch a single spell on the daily and metamagic at level up could help deal with this issue tremendously with very little power impact on the overall class in terms of adding too much brute force. Let's hope the former sees official print and WOTC at least considers the latter.

I don't know, it feels like the game is "cooperative" and "DM & Player storytelling" until people talk about classes, where suddenly we must protect ourselves against the bad DM. As a DM, I really want players to ask questions about their specific abilities.

I remember how my skills with exploration grew tremendously because a player wanted to play a Ranger. They asked about my setting's geography, it's lore, it's creatures in a way that I didn't think would need to be fleshed out. Now, my world has multiple terrain types even in predominant areas, where every location has something worthwhile and story related to explore. The grassland ranger can get lost in the 2-mile radius forest between the grasslands and coast and can spend an hour or two in there, but they took the detour because of the rumored elvish bow (flavored +2 bow) which can show both as a powerful weapon and a token of trust for the high elf court. They might get lost or ambushed, but they place value in that bow, so they'll risk it. (The other party members place value in the bow as well.)

This stuff makes me excited as a DM and makes my player's ability never worthless or excessive and they love it. Some kobolds know thieves' cant. Among the huge shelf of books is a spellbook with a couple of useful spells for the wizard. A disease has festered on your patron. I put these things into my campaign before I even see their characters because I like to see the solutions some players have. They can keep pushing forward in the story, too.

Agreed as a DM. But counter point, not all DMs run campaigns this broad (or what I'm guessing is rather sandbox-y), and many of the official modules have strong themes like I described previously. Try playing a fire sorcerer in decent into Avernus without the DM having some sort of magic item or houserule to Elemental Adept that let's players damage fire immune monsters (a rare case where the build that is great for sorcerers does fall flat), or being told you're being told to play one game, then "surprise it's now a Curse of Strahd game!" and feeling like that heavy giant themed fighter rune knight (I know it's UA) is now thematically off point and you spend the game wishing you'd gotten to play that undead slaying paladin/cleric/ranger and the DM hadn't pulled a damned fast one, or the charm-themed warlock/bard realizing that most of the same game's bosses and much of their minions are immune to charm. Or wanting to play a fighter who hits things really hard and asks questions later only to realize that Dragon Heist is a largely political/roleplaying themed game and that Waterdeep's laws can literally get you killed, exiled, or thrown in a dungeon for multiple weeks/years for accidentally murdering a commoner, and how are you to know as a player which random NPC will get cut in half with a single blow and which is a secret CR 12 ex-adventurer that will kill the entire party if you so much as sneeze at them wrong?

None of these modules are bad or awful by any means, hell Dragon Heist and Curse of Strahd are some of my favorite prewritten modules ever, but it doesn't change the fact that I'd never not at least give my players a hint that they might be taking a trip to Barovia to fight a vampire, or clearly communicate that Waterdeep has strict laws and that this game may not end up being heavily filled with combat. They are merely themed games.

I have alot of respect for the designers. Many people look at them like they're incompetent or that they didn't read the PHB themselves. I've looked in-depth in this system and there's alot of brilliant decisions in this system. From the lower than average CR hp, but defensive features that boost effective HP so that combats don't drag too far out. To long rests allowing casting spells for less than 1 hour while spells slots returning at the very end, so that leftover spell slots can be used right before the end of the long rest for long duration spells like mage armor or Aid.

Agreed. The designers were largely on the mark with this edition. But like every other edition before it, there are still random hickups here or there. Sorcerer and Ranger are arguably two of them from the PHB. Crunch time and deadlines also happen and interfere with design quality, one should note that in the case of the sorcerer during the playtest for most of it they DID go with a radically different design at first, using one that make the class much more variant based on origin selection, dragon sorcerers were full on GISH machines as an example. Players largely gave them feedback that "this isn't how they were in 3.5!" and they changed it last minute to hardcore casters and doubled down on the metamagic mechanic and sorcery points. Part of these backlash may have been fueled by them not having many other origins available to test pre-launch so testers just had to go with "trust us, not every sorcerer will be so beefy and focused on melee!", but the end result is that the current version of the class had basically no actual playtesting as a result. There is also something to be said about them learning more about class design as further products are released. It's why concerns about power creep are a thing if they are unwilling to offer erratas or edits to previous subclasses.

Ignore metamagic completely for a second, pretend it doesn't exist. In fact, no sorcery points, only font of magic conversions. The sorcerer's unique ability to manipulate spell slots is now what sets it apart from other spellcasters and it's brilliant. You can turn 3 1st-level spells into invisibility rather than use another 2nd-level slot.

That's interesting and unique. If you don't consider it "competing" with another resource, it already is a unique ability. What's brilliant is that you probably wouldn't use this for something to upcast damage because it takes a while to convert while you could've just casted the spell 3 times, but unique second-level options or when upcasting does something more than damage like fog cloud (not recommended).

And then, a sorcerer can convert a 4th level spell into 2 1st level spells. In case you don't need a 4th level shield, you need 2 first level shields.

Now, give sorcerers a feature that facilitates the movement from lower spellslot <-> higher spellslots using points, give them extra. Sounds pretty good? Remember, they're also the same caster with CON saves and either higher HP/AC or can gain advantage against saves of their choosing.

Now, give them even more abilities. The ability to cast enhanced spells, but not just one enhancement, they get 2. And they can choose out of a list of 8 preferred ones. One of which is so powerful, giving disadvantage on saves (some of which can end an encounter) that it should be 3 points while another can allow someone to concentrate on 2 targets at once with haste.

This is what I mean when I say I don't consider metamagic as the defining trait of sorcerers. They're a nice bonus but the spell slot manipulation is so unique and powerful for a spellcaster.

Again I don't dispute any of these (aside from that again only Dragon sorcerers have more HP or a higher AC than wizards and that again Con saves are arguably an even trade for wisdom, especially when group dynamics are considered, the sorcerer is effectively the same as a fighter for saves which could mean the party is might now be vulnerable to group wisdom saves that the wizard would likely have succeeded on). But again I point out, that when factoring in other class abilities wizards will never find themselves unable to use any of their class features because they spent their daily uses on making extra spell slots, and again that is fine if the sorcerer is intended to have everything be based on sorcery point expenditure, but again if that is the case, they do not have enough sorcery points.
 
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NotAYakk

Legend
Here is my stab at a sorcerer.

Sorcerer
Natural Magic (Replacement of Flexible Casting)
You regain your sorcery points on a short rest. At level 2, you gain 1 metamagic technique, then additional ones at later levels (for example, a total of 3 at level 3).

Magic Incarnate (Alternative to Sorcerous Restoration)
Starting at 20th level, whenever you cast a spell, you can apply 1 metamagic effect to it without expending metamagic points. You may also apply a 2nd metamagic effect to your spells, but must pay for the second with metamagic points.
The game in question has modified "gritty" rests, so having many encounters per long rest is expected.

Both of these aim to make "modifying spells" core to the class. You end up with fewer spells/day than anyone except a bard, and fewer spells known, but you get to play with all of them really often.

You keep your slots for your spells; per-encounter sorcery points is enough to make you a really strange caster compared to everyone else.

Subclasses get bloodline spells:
Draconic Sorcerer
Bloodline Spells (Additional feature)
You gain the following additional spells known:
1st Chromatic orb*
3rd Dragon's Breath*
5th Fear, Elemental Weapon*
7th Elemental Bane*
9th Dominate Person
* Unless you get this spell from another source, the damage you choose must match your Dragon Ancestry Damage Type. If the spell does not usually permit that kind of damage, you can still do that kind of damage.
Storm Sorcerer
Tempestuous Magic (Enhancement)
You can fly 10’ as a bonus action even if you don’t cast a spell. This movement does not provoke if you do it immediately before or after casting a spell using a spell slot of 1st level or above.
Bloodline Spells (Additional feature)
You gain the following additional spells known:
1st Fog Cloud
3rd Gust of Wind
5th Call Lightning, Sleet Storm
7th Conjure Minor Elementals*
9th Conjure Elemental**
*Unless you gain this spell from another source, you can summon only smoke mephits, steam mephits, ice mephits, or dust mephits with it.
**Unless you gain this spell from another source, you can summon only air elementals with it.
Wild Magic Sorcerer
Wild Magic Surge (Enhancement)
Both you or the DM can choose to roll the d20 to produce a wild magic surge. If there is a wild magic surge, your tides of chaos feature recharges and you regain 1 sorcery point..
Bloodline Spells (Additional feature)
You gain the following additional spells known:
1st Chaos Bolt
3rd Mirror Image
5th Hypnotic Pattern
7th Confusion
9th Maelstrom
Shadow Sorcerer
Bloodline Spells (Additional feature)
You gain the following additional spells known:
1st Disguise Self
3rd Shadow Blade
5th Gaseous Form
7th Shadow of Moil
9th Danse Macabre
Divine Soul Sorcerer
Bloodline Spells (Additional feature)
Pick one Cleric Domain. You can choose 1 of their Domain Spells choose 1 of them per spell level as a bonus spell known.
plus a fun tweak to Storm Sorcerer flight and Wild Magic.

These spell selections are a mix of strong spells, strong spells weakened by restrictions, and fun/utility spells.
 


Here is my stab at a sorcerer.


The game in question has modified "gritty" rests, so having many encounters per long rest is expected.

Both of these aim to make "modifying spells" core to the class. You end up with fewer spells/day than anyone except a bard, and fewer spells known, but you get to play with all of them really often.

You keep your slots for your spells; per-encounter sorcery points is enough to make you a really strange caster compared to everyone else.

Subclasses get bloodline spells:

plus a fun tweak to Storm Sorcerer flight and Wild Magic.

These spell selections are a mix of strong spells, strong spells weakened by restrictions, and fun/utility spells.

All of these changes are stuff I've considered. How would you say the actual results in play have been for them having full sorcery points every short rest? Has there been a noticable difference in the number of spells the sorcerer gets to cast for each long rest compared to the other casters? Has there been any statements akin to "well, I'm about to short rest, I might as well burn ALL my points into spell slots" and if so has this had a noticable impact on the game? Obviously different rest mechanics from the norm is quite a variable as well, I'm just curious if you've noticed anything.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
While I do agree that the situation is not as dire in a post Elemental Evil/Xanathar's world, there is still a problem. Ice storm is in fact a good spell in the right situation, but by the time they get it, fire and lightning sorcerers have already been using their respective signature blasts for two levels already, which can be a big deal if the campaign never reaches past 9th level. I've both played and ran in campaigns in which the party was 6th level or so for almost 6 months to a year. Said campaigns are quite fun, but could be frustrating to certain builds because of it. With ice storm in particular, the spell also will outright piss off your party members royally if you have any melee in your group, and while having to carefully aim aoe spells is nothing that is just an ice element or sorcerer problem, lack of instant damage spells of every element for every level is something that gets noticed by players. As a DM I can remedy this by giving players magic items or homebrewing alternative metamagics/feats to allow them to alter spell elements on the fly, but but RAW dragon sorcerers are heavily incentivized to only pick one element of spells and frankly do not have enough spells known to go off script too much if their particular element is lackluster. I'll concede that only really acid or poison is arguably unplayable though.
I'm not so sure about the badness for martials. If you position it right, retreating from the martials actually put the enemy at a disadvantage because they'll be running into difficult terrain. A sort-of back-to-the-wall situation.

I get that chromatic orb isn't the best spell in the world, but it allows all sorcerers to do their additional damage until they have access to another higher-level spell. It also bypasses magic resistance and you can still use it if a creature resists your main damage spells. And now that I peeked at Xanathar's there's really an elemental option for every element of almost every level.
This DM dependence of rules interpretation is precisely why I label the archetype lackluster though. Yes, it can be great fun with the right DM. One of my regular sorcerer players loves it to the point that I regularly find reasons to include the wild magic table as must as I can. It can also the weakest archetype if the DM never calls for wild surge rolls.
In a way, almost any type of DM can ruin any build for a character even if they follow the RAW and a module. I'm not sure that's exactly the qualitative reasoning.

Again, what I want my involvement to be in these threads is to find solutions to this precise problem of preventing font of magic abuse on short rest sorcery points houserule and identifying other potential concerns, or to talk about other suggestions myself or others have tried and actually playtested. I don't think the sorcerer even needs much. A few bonus origin spells known [which again if you read my original posts I talk about how I feel giving them cleric style at first directly led to my sorcerer knowing nearly twice the spells of the warlock and more than what a wizard would prepare as well, and led me to conclude that giving a bonus spell each odd level chosen from a list of 10 1st-5th level origin spells more like the warlock was a better idea], an extra metamagic at 7th level, and ....something to help with spell point regeneration and I feel we are there. The problem is figuring out that last point.
Well, I bring these things up because I want to imagine what would happen if you brought these fixes to an AL RAW-type game. In that I mean, If I'm a very rude player that wants to hog all given aspects of a game and be the "winner", how would I go about it currently? Sorcery points on a short rest is essentially "I can cast a truckload of multiple spells in any given downtime opportunity by constantly short resting throughout the day."

At upper levels, this doesn't mean much but at later levels, I've actually became a caffeine-sorcerer by RAW without any dips into warlock. I can go 10 lvl sorcerer, 9 lvl cleric. This means I can convert all my sorcery points to spell slots, short rest and stockpile, then cast Greater Restoration whenever I don't long rest. This is the balancing I want people to notice.

Instead I have to deal with the same "just play a fire sorcerer or devine soul! that's what sorcerers are!" or "twin spell, subtle, and quicken are great therefore every other metamagic is fine!" comments in...every...thread related to this. I'm not saying that other class related threads (or just any thread in general really) don't have similar issues that bloat up their threads because they do, but they each have their own "fanatics" defending them as well. I might gripe offhandedly about the 17 warlord threads but I don't go seeking them out to tell them their thoughts are dumb and they should feel bad. It's a toxic culture of internet forums in general and it needs to cleansed like the cancer it is. People need to be respectful of each other.
I think sorcerers are somewhat balanced within their group. I cannot deny that some are greater than others, but I don't think it's as large as people believe.
Another step towards something that I feel really evens the playing field for the limited spells known for a sorcerer, the unearthed arcana class variant that lets spells known classes switch out one spell on each long rest. My sorcerer player has said that she loves this change more than anything else and it really helped her issues with the class. This is the same person, mind you who says she doesn't like playing prepared casters like wizards or clerics because she feels they have too many choices and it leaves her with decision paralysis. Interpret that as you will. I just hope it sees official print.
I get that player satisfaction is something a DM should care alot about but buffing a character will always make them feel more free and better. This doesn't make the class actually better or a fix. I'm sure if I gave a cleric player access to wish, they'd be overjoyed and wouldn't feel as badly compared to a wizard's wish. But did they really need wish?

This is a fair point. People should probably be more clear in stating what is their opinion and be aware of using authoritative language. I myself am guilty of this. Though I have also seen plenty of people preface their threads with things akin to "I get that this is all my opinion and that not everyone agrees that class x or ability y is in need of fixing, let's just keep the thread to feedback of possible tweaks for those who feel this opinion may hold weight and the comments of It's fine! to a minimum" and the threads STILL get bogged down not 5 pages with two idiots arguing over whether the original topic is even a valid subject of discussion in the first place. Again toxic forum culture.
I do apologize if that's how I came off. Alot of the balancing suggestions usually don't take into account what makes a sorcerer powerful already, just as the short rest scenario.
You'd be hardpressed to make that claim though, given that evoker wizards have the best fireball out of any fireballs by a wide margin, and all other fireballs are still blatantly overpowered for their level due to WOTC feeling it was a good decision to make certain spells "iconic" and therefore OP. sigh But that is a whole other topic of discussion. Point granted that one could make arguments of any class combined with any ability and still receive toxic criticism though.
Fireball is a good spell but it's tied to a commonly resisted damage type. A fiend with fire resistance will easily brush off a fireball with magic resistance and stuff. In a fiendish campaign, fireball is usually not even a good spell. In fact, most blaster and enchantment type spells would be really bad.

Again, I am guilty of speaking authoritatively when I should not have. You are welcome to have fun and I do not mean to diminish it, but by that same regard, I have had multiple players and myself playing multiple sorcerers all express independently similar gripes about that class that all really boiled down to two key issues: not enough spells known and not enough sorcery points to get through the day. They all stated that trying out some of my proposed changes made the class feel more fun. Interpret that as you will. I still also am of a personal belief that sorcerers not getting ritual casting is a glaring oversight by the developers. They are the ONLY full caster [I'd argue that only tomelocks are the only full casters for warlock and that is sort of their design intent, but this is kind of a semantics problem, granted] whom does not get it as a feature and while again comparing abilities on a single basis is flawed giving the sorcerer ritual casting like a bard and adding a few more ritual spells to their list in general hardly a broken sorcerer makes.
The reason they don't have ritual casting is because sorcerers hardly have any rituals to begin with and if they had more, they'd probably start outclassing the warlock by alot because he'd be the only fullcaster without innate ritual casting.
You bring up newer players (at least that what I assume you mean by "bright-eyed" as that is the original meaning of that phrase). New players are actually a big concern of mine. One the underlying issues I have with the sorcerer is that as written now it is a deceptively punishing class for new players. One wrong spell selection and they are stuck with it until they level up (which again in some campaigns/groups could be quite some time). One wrong metamagic choice? They may never get the option to get another in many campaigns. There is a certain pair of youtubers (Dungeon Dudes) who did a video on best classes for newer players and one of the points one of them brought was precisely this when they had a debate as to whether sorcerers or wizards were more forgiving of new players.
Well, not exactly. You'd probably first have to know how to use spells before you're ready to be flexible with slots. So, someone that's seen a spellcaster in action and wanted a go with more freedom. Less "new player" and more of a "novice" who's ready to up the complexity.

I think wizards would be the easiest for new players since they have a wider margin of error, as you've said. I don't think that means they're better than a sorcerer, it would be pretty bad, though, if they were significantly worse than a sorcerer that has mastered their class since wizards would then be listed as a terrible class and that would probably ruin the entire edition for the majority of fans.

This is admittedly a minor mistake on your part and I do not mean to be overly nitpicky, but as you mentioned it multiple times now, sorcerers by RAW do NOT have light armor proficiency nor (what I think you seem to think based on the implication of some of their comments) more health than a wizard (excluding dragon sorcerer). I've seen a common houseruling of giving sorcerers d8 hit dice, light armor proficiency, and simple weapons, and it is a change I've considered due to having a player specifically tell me he chose warlock over sorcerer precisely because he wanted more health and was considering using weapons on occasion (he also considered pact of the blade for awhile, though ultimately setting for tome). My current sorcerer is typically a martial player and has definitely noticed the difference in health and AC with her sorcerer as well (albeit this is more a musing than indication of problem).
Ah, I must've skimmed to the warlock's features when looking. Thank you for letting me know. I hold that constitution saves are better than wisdom saves because not alot of enemies can break concentration with their wis saves but any damage can break concentration.

What I think would help is if at minimum sorcerers had simple weapons. It would mean that dragon sorcerers could be a decent gish, and I'd be all for a subclass like blade warlocks or bladesinger wizard for sorcerers. And yes, sorcerers DO get Con save proficiency, and that is in fact nice for concentrating on spells, but they also loose out on wisdom save proficiency and have little incentive to have a high wisdom, leaving them vulnerable to other things. Ask any fighter if they feel at times having a low wisdom is a vulnerability to certain spells. The save proficiencies are ultimately a trade off and that is good design.
I agree that a martial sorcerer would be interesting but I wonder how'd they make it work well. I agree about wis saves but all monsters can force a con save on a concentrating sorcerer. Only some can force a Wis save and even less can force off their concentration. Con is also good for the majority of poisonous attacks.

As I said before, the sorcerer is a class that requires significantly more system mastery to perform than a lot of others, excluding very few specific builds a new player could luck into (fire/lightning dragon and divine soul). Letting the sorcerer switch a single spell on the daily and metamagic at level up could help deal with this issue tremendously with very little power impact on the overall class in terms of adding too much brute force. Let's hope the former sees official print and WOTC at least considers the latter.
It's actually supposed to be pretty close to that pace, as the designers intended. They thought a player would level up around every 3 sessions, so it's actually a side-effect of the fanbase being unpredictable about their trend in gaming. Every 3 sessions at this point in campaigns that I've heard about takes 6-7 sessions minimum to level, which is why being able to switch doesn't feel as good and why metamagic upgrades get so far. They probably didn't expect as many roleplay-heavy and story-centric games either coming from 3.5e and 4e. They certainly didn't want to police people back into how the assumptions when they designed, but it does affect balance in many ways.

Agreed as a DM. But counter point, not all DMs run campaigns this broad (or what I'm guessing is rather sandbox-y), and many of the official modules have strong themes like I described previously. Try playing a fire sorcerer in decent into Avernus without the DM having some sort of magic item or houserule to Elemental Adept that let's players damage fire immune monsters (a rare case where the build that is great for sorcerers does fall flat), or being told you're being told to play one game, then "surprise it's now a Curse of Strahd game!" and feeling like that heavy giant themed fighter rune knight (I know it's UA) is now thematically off point and you spend the game wishing you'd gotten to play that undead slaying paladin/cleric/ranger and the DM hadn't pulled a damned fast one, or the charm-themed warlock realizing that most of the same game's bosses and much of their minions are immune to charm. Or wanting to play a fighter who hits things really hard and asks questions later only to realize that Dragon Heist is a largely political/roleplaying themed game and that Waterdeep's laws can literally get you killed, exiled, or throne in a dungeon for multiple weeks/years for accidentally murdering a commoner, and how are you to know as a player which random NPC will get cut in half with a single blow and which is a secret CR 12 ex-adventurer that will kill the entire party if you so much as sneeze at them wrong?

None of these modules are bad or awful by any means, hell Dragon Heist and Curse of Strahd are some of my favorite prewritten modules ever, but it doesn't change the fact that I'd never not at least give my players a hint that they might be taking a trip to Barovia to fight a vampire, or clearly communicate that Waterdeep has strict laws and that this game may not end up being heavily filled with combat. They are merely themed games.



Agreed. The designers were largely on the mark with this edition. But like every other edition before it, there are still random hickups here or there. Sorcerer and Ranger are arguably two of them from the PHB. Crunch time and deadlines also happen and interfere with design quality, one should not that in the case of the sorcerer during the playtest for most of it they DID go with a radically different design at first, using one that make the class much more variant based on origin selection, dragon sorcerers were full on GISH machines as an example. Players largely gave them feedback that "this isn't how they were in 3.5!" and they changed it last minute to hardcore casters and doubled down on the metamagic mechanic and sorcery points. Part of these backlash may have been fueled by them not having many other origins available to test pre-launch so testers just had to go with "trust us, not every sorcerer will be so beefy and focused on melee!", but the end result is that the current version of the class had basically no actual playtesting as a result. There is also something to be said about them learning more about class design as further products are released. It's why concerns about power creep are a thing if they are unwilling to offer erratas or edits to previous subclasses.
I don't think they were under too large of a crunch. They especially wouldn't leave a sorcerer as something half-made. True strike, which wasn't amazing even in other editions, was probably one of the few compromises. I think they meant for a couple more spells which some went to Xanathar's but not all.

Again I don't dispute any of these (aside from that again only Dragon sorcerers have more HP or a higher AC than wizards and that again Con saves are arguably an even trade for wisdom, especially when group dynamics are considered, the sorcerer is effectively the same as a fighter for saves which could mean the party is might now be vulnerable to group wisdom saves that the wizard would likely have succeeded on). But again I point out, that when factoring in other class abilities wizards will never find themselves unable to use any of their class features because they spent their daily uses on making extra spell slots, and again that is fine if the sorcerer is intended to have everything be based on sorcery point expenditure, but again if that is the case, they do...not...have...enough.
Okay, I'll say that wizards with spellslots or resources at the end of the day is horrible. Because those spell slots disappear without a chance to be used. I don't think they should lose all their spellslots as quickly as possible, but a spell that could've been cast to do more damage but didn't might have costed the others damage from the enemy living too long or could've been used to cast charm person on that abrasive guard.

Spellcasters should thrive to effectively use all their resources before a long rest by pacing themselves. Like a marathon, you don't want to be slow but you don't want to get exhausted.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
All of these changes are stuff I've considered. How would you say the actual results in play have been for them having full sorcery points every short rest? Has there been a noticable difference in the number of spells the sorcerer gets to cast for each long rest compared to the other casters? Has there been any statements akin to "well, I'm about to short rest, I might as well burn ALL my points into spell slots" and if so has this had a noticable impact on the game? Obviously different rest mechanics from the norm is quite a variable as well, I'm just curious if you've noticed anything.
The game has not started, I'm working on the campaign. :)

This sorcerer doesn't have flexible casting. At level 2, you instead get 1 metamagic option (which is extra), and short rest points.

Converting sorcery points to/from slots isn't possible.

I consider this a significant power upgrade, but it is still white-room.
 

@NotAYakk My own thoughts on tweaking the sorcerer are very similar -- get rid of flexible casting to put more emphasis on metamagic. But I was also thinking of increasing the amount of metamagic options a sorcerer has available. Like, by a lot. Maybe to one per level. (Fortunately, it's easy to mine 3E for more metamagic effects to choose from.) This would give the sorcerer a lot more flexibility and make the decisions you make from casting very distinctive from other casters, without being a straight power boost.
 

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