Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 2)

[Stalker0]

One other piece of advise that comes from a lot of mechanic making and prc creation... in the end if the class doesn't fit on 2-3 pages of text its too much. The class abilities have to be concise and clear... while loads of options are wonderful... the fact is if it drags on noone will want it.

 

[Khaalis]

I agree, now that the thread has been summarized I actually know what's going on

Glad it helped. =)

Just some really quick responses for now before I crash to get sleep before work. I’ll respond to any responses later tonight.

Khaalis, I noticed you were still looking for a way to model a sorc's inborn ability. I've also been working on an alt.sorc lately, here's my latest work: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1377370#post1377370. Its got a mechanic similar to a barb rage, you can see if that is something you'd like to add to the class.

I only had time to glance at this, but at the most brief glance it is very “Child of the Elements” oriented. While I love some of the ideas, I will need to read it much more closely. For an Elementalist Sorcerer this looks very interesting. Not sure I want to pinhole to one hereditary concept though, but some of the abilities could be genericized easily enough. As for the Rage, I assume you mean “Aussir Ixen”? Again I will read over it more tonight.

As far as the heritages go, I think your going way too far on them. In them, I'm seeing things like giving sorcs divine grace and such. You've already giving sorcs more higher level spells, and giving them spell chain ability. I don't think a lot of power boosting heredities is a good idea at this point.

Just out of curiosity, where do you see the sorcerer as getting more higher level spells? Do you mean more casting power? Or are you referring to the bonus known spells from the spell path? By spell chain are you referring to the Spell Path? (Just trying to clarify what you mean here.)

Do I need to go back and re-word the spell path? It seems you are the second person in a row to think this meant a Bonus Cast Spell Per Spell Level, similar to a Clerics 1+1, but is not. It is a Bonus Known spell per spell level.

I do NOT intend to change the “Casting” Power of the sorcerer at all. The bonus known spells are meant to add a “flavor” or a “thematic” to the sorcerer that they would not necessarily normally have been in their spell selection, and it is meant to give them a tiny bit more versatility in the spells known.

As for the heredity path, they aren’t meant to give a large boost in power. They are meant to be similar in nature to a cleric domain. They give minor benefits. The “path” template (right now) is basically:

• Gain one Class Skill related to the heredity.
• Gain an appropriate bonus language (draconic by default)
• Special Bonuses (set number? Currently 2)

• Specific Ability related to the heredity
• Spell List designation – what spells the heredity may learn outside of the Wizard spell list if any, and any restrictions on spells they may not learn at all

• Additional Spell Path (gain a Spell Path related to the heredity) - Remember, this is a bonus KNOWN spell per spell level.

For the non-heredity they got: No Class Skill or Language because they don’t fit, Spell Focus, 9 Bonus Known spells (1 per spell level), and those 9 Bonus spells are cast at a +1 Caster Level.

I was trying to aim this Path choice to be similar to a Cleric’s choice for their Domains, or the choice made by Monks and Rangers to choose their Fighting Styles.

As specifically to Divine Grace, yes this is one I modified. It was a good generic ability that could be easily adapted to the Sorcerer and is a great ability to give the Sorcerer’s weak Charisma stat a better use other than just their spells. All of the other casters receive various other benefits from their primary stat while the sorcerer doesn’t so I wanted to link their abilities to Charisma. Divine Grace is a great one. The sorcerers inherent magic aids and protects them from harm. This really isn’t so different from your Hesjing Ir, or Thrae Irlym. With that said, when I got to the stage of doing the templates for the other Heredities I was going to use the same basic Energy Resistance you used for the Children of the Element’s ability.

Perhaps instead, how about the heredities give you smaller, more flexible bonuses? For instance, in Arcana Unearthed there are several traits in there spell casters can take that can give them access to different templates. These templates can be added to spells similar to have metamagic works now. This would allow the sorc more customability in his spellcasting which I believe most would appreciate.

While I personally like the Templates form Arcana Uneartherd I am hesitant to try and use them in a core class replacement. I would prefer to stick to more basic class oriented abilities. For the “Expanded” optional material that I will add on once the Core Class is set in stone – then I will Definitely be adding a section on the use of Monte’s Spell Templates.

What other kinds of abilities do you see the Sorcerer as having? I need ideas here. There aren’t that many “generic” magic oriented abilities other than something like Divine Grace, Purity, Spell Resistance and Element Resistance?

What were your thoughts on other abilities such as the Arcane Sense?

One other piece of advise that comes from a lot of mechanic making and prc creation... in the end if the class doesn't fit on 2-3 pages of text its too much. The class abilities have to be concise and clear... while loads of options are wonderful... the fact is if it drags on noone will want it.

As for a core class design I do realize this. Most of the “detailed” classes in the PHB run what seems an average of 3-3.5 pages of small type face. I will definitely use it as a guide when I am working this in the word format.


Thanks in advance for any/all replies!!

 

[Stormborn]

One other piece of advise that comes from a lot of mechanic making and prc creation... in the end if the class doesn't fit on 2-3 pages of text its too much. The class abilities have to be concise and clear... while loads of options are wonderful... the fact is if it drags on noone will want it.

Agreed. It seems that an optimal idea is for a sorcerer to choose a slightly modified Arcane Domain. As the core books list Domains for Clerics, why not Sorcerers? It would keep the actuall text of the class down to a page or two, like the cleric, and detail the various Domains elsewhere.

The Arcane Domain would do the following (As per previous posts):

• Gain one Class Skill related to the heredity.
• Gain an appropriate bonus language (draconic by default)
• Additional Spell Path: gain a bonus spell known per level as related to heredity.

Now, as for special abilites, take another suggestion from the idea of Domains. In addition to the above have each Domain grant a Lesser and Greater Ability at an appropriate level (5th and 15th? Don't have my books in front of me right now.) These can be things like spell like abilites, bonuses to skills, or access to certain divine spells with an appropriate descriptor. A generic domain (Mageborn? Manatouched?) could grant lesser spells of the Universal School and allow access to Familiar, Metamagic, or Item Creation Feats as its abilities.

Grant a bonus Feat at first level: Still, Silent, or Eschew Materials.

This beefs up the sorcerer to a level similar to the other base classes, and keeps the efforts relatively uncomplicated.

 

[Grayhawk]

Khaalis, I've followed your original 'Sorcerer Fix' thread and I've found that it holds a lot of great ideas. While I don't agree with all of them, I has inspired me to start working on my own version of the Sorcerer.

While the details of what I'm going to do with the Sorcerer don't belong here, since this is your project, let me just present you with an idea I have about how to handle the following problem:

How do we make the Sorcerer “feel” in the mechanics to be an “INNATE” caster that casts purely as “just raw power that they direct at will” without unbalancing the class or writing a new magic system?

While at first it seemed inspired to let the Sorcerer's spells be handled as Spell like abilities (to match the flavor text), I'm pretty confident that even if this was the only thing you changed it would still make the Sorcerer unbalanced.

I feel that giving the Sorcerer Eschew Materials for free is the right way to go. I know that you feel that this doesn't really set the Sorcerer's casting enough apart from the Wizard's, but what if you describe it as being different?

I know how you feel about following the flavor text when creating this Sorcerer version, but how do you feel about adding to the flavor text, as long as it doesn't contradict the original text?

What I have in mind is describing the Sorcerer's casting as 'a channeling of innate power, often requiring a powerful gesture - like pointing at the target of a spell - as well as a word of power.'

As such, it will be balanced to the other classes' casting, by being subject to the same limitations and by being equally affected by Silence, bound hands, etc.

And if described correctly it will get a feel of it's own, different from the Wizard who needs to weave his hands around while chanting incantations repeatedly. The difference should be so great that it's evident whether you're facing a Sorcerer or some other caster.

You might even say that the Sorcerers' magic came first, and that the Wizards' bookish magic merely is a way of recreating effects that have naturally manifested themselves in Sorcerers over time. As such Wizards need their material components to put themselves in the right state of mind (which comes naturally to Sorcerers), and they need to weave and dodge and chant to 'coax' the magic into producing the desired effect, whereas a Sorcerer merely 'commands' it.

This may also explain why Sorcerers get to ignore ASF in light armors (if you choose to let them do so) when Wizards don't: The required somatic component for a Sorcerer is much simpler and easier to execute than the complex movements required by a Wizard.

I hope this may be of some use.

 

[GuardianLurker]

It has been discussed, ad nauseum, and determined that many feel that the sorcerer is overall, underpowered in comparison to the other base classes. It is also known that the sorcerer Flavor Text and sorcerer mechanics have little to do with one another. The flavor text is Non-OGL and has survived various development revisions pre-3.0 release, 3.0 release, 3.0 errata, 3.5 revision, and 3.5 errata. The flavor text of the sorcerer is here to stay. The purpose of this thread is to make a class mechanic that matches that flavor text and uses it to define what the sorcerer is and should be. There is also the need to make the sorcerer into a unique class and not just a wizard that prepares spells differently. The sorcerer needs to find its own niche and strength as a class, not just to be the equivalent of a Hedge Wizard.

There's a lot in this summary that I agree with, and one BIG thing I disagree with. Having done the analysis, I feel confident in saying that in terms of shear, raw, spell-slinging ability, no other core class even comes close to matching the Sorceror. In fact, it can reasonably be argued that it takes a wizard's bonus item creation feats (and the free time to use them) to bring the wizard on par with the Sorceror.

However, I will certainly agree that the sorceror does NOT match its flavor text, and it'd be nice to see one that does. Having scanned your proposals, I think you're doing a great job of matching the flavor (though I'd get rid of Spellcraft as a class skill), but are tending to overpower the most powerful spellcasting class with your bonus feats.

Still, good luck.

 

[maggot]

“Since Sorcerers often have a powerful presence that gives them a way with people, they frequently serve as the “face” for an adventuring party, negotiating, bargaining, and speaking for others. The Sorcerer’s spells often help him sway others or gain information, so he makes an excellent spy or diplomat for an adventuring party.”

This covers the social skills of Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate and Sense Motive.

I disagree these skills fit the flavor. the quote goes on to say the sorcerer uses spells to sway others or gain information. From this, I would conclude the information gathering skills (gather information and sense motive) are not class skills because the sorcerer uses spells instead of skill. Also, one could conclude that diplomacy and bluff are out for pretty much the same reason. Only intimidate seems to fit because of the earlier part about "powerful presense." I suppose you could include diplomacy because of the part about being a "face" for a party. But I really have a problem with bluff. I see no basis at all for that.

Also, purely balance-wise, if you give the sorcerer all the charisma interaction skills and 4 skill points/level, you really remove a lot of reason to ever play a bard. Actually, I think you have turned the sorcerer into a bard (light armor, d6 hit die).

 

[Stalker0]

I disagree these skills fit the flavor. the quote goes on to say the sorcerer uses spells to sway others or gain information. From this, I would conclude the information gathering skills (gather information and sense motive) are not class skills because the sorcerer uses spells instead of skill. Also, one could conclude that diplomacy and bluff are out for pretty much the same reason.

Problem with that is that's assuming the sorc gets those kinds of spells which many don't. Also, if it was just the spells, why wouldn't the wizard just do that as well?

I agree with the idea they should be more diplomatic.

Khaalis, when I said higher level spell casting, I was refereing to the extra spells known. I believe they now get 2 per sorc level with your version. I think that's already a big boost, and so from there only small tweaks are needed.

I think maybe you could solve the lack of versatility and the flavor with the domains all in one swift motion. Just have the domains grant a couple of bonus spells known, and give maybe a skill as a class skill. I really think more than that and your starting to push the power envelope.

As far as ideas to give to sorcs:
1) They gain some kind of bonus with intelligent items.
2) They can burn hp or spells to gain greater spellcasting (or just an innate 1/day thing like my irthos ixen idea)
3) They can specialize with certain spells so they automatically still and silent certain ones.
4) They can enhance items for brief periods of time. (really like this one).
5) There blood has medicinal or magical properties.
6) They can transfer their power to others to give certain effects.
7) When they die, there aura spreads and give a temporary morale bonus to their allies.
8) They can talk to magical creatures or elements or elementals.
9) They can abosrb magical power.

 

[Khaalis]

Ok, mass reply!
Thank you all for replies and comments – I will try to answer everything. Wow this is gonna take a while…

(PS: I am not going to quote who said what because a lot of the topics overlap and I want to answer each “topic” not necessarily every reply to that topic. Also take what is said with a grain of salt, as I am merely expressing my thoughts and concerns and trying to find what works for the majority.)

It seems that an optimal idea is for a sorcerer to choose a slightly modified Arcane Domain. As the core books list Domains for Clerics, why not Sorcerers? It would keep the actuall text of the class down to a page or two, like the cleric, and detail the various Domains elsewhere.

I agree with this. The “Spell Paths” (default name for now) will be similar to domains in that they will be detailed as to how they work in the class description, but the “details” of each Spell Path will be detailed as a “separate” section.

Now, as for special abilites, take another suggestion from the idea of Domains. In addition to the above have each Domain grant a Lesser and Greater Ability at an appropriate level (5th and 15th? Don't have my books in front of me right now.) These can be things like spell like abilites, bonuses to skills, or access to certain divine spells with an appropriate descriptor. A generic domain (Mageborn? Manatouched?) could grant lesser spells of the Universal School and allow access to Familiar, Metamagic, or Item Creation Feats as its abilities.

Domains only grant 1 power, and they are gained at 1st level. I do like the ideas presented here and I think it can be used for the base ideal I wish to keep – which is a mechanic that allows a “Non-Heredity” oriented sorcerer as well as a “Heredity” oriented sorcerer. The only hard part is making the two balance since Heredity oriented sorcerers gain a few more Flavor Mechanics than a “Generic” sorcerer such as the bonus language, etc.

The way I am seeing the choice is this. At 1st Level you must make a decision as do Clerics (and Monks & Rangers), as to what path you want to follow: Heredity or Non-Heredity (Generic cleric or Specific Religion). From their you choose the specific path (Cleric chooses specific domains).

I tried to make Non-Heredity have a path choice as well, to balance the Heredity choice. Thus your choice string would be:
Non-Heredity: Specialist Sorcerer or Domain Sorcerer
Heredity: Child of Magic or Child of Nature, or etc.

This (see above quote) beefs up the sorcerer to a level similar to the other base classes, and keeps the efforts relatively uncomplicated.

There's a lot in this summary that I agree with, and one BIG thing I disagree with. Having done the analysis, I feel confident in saying that in terms of shear, raw, spell-slinging ability, no other core class even comes close to matching the Sorceror. In fact, it can reasonably be argued that it takes a wizard's bonus item creation feats (and the free time to use them) to bring the wizard on par with the Sorceror.

Well, I am not worried about complicated efforts as can be seen by the whole thread.

With that said, I have to say that I don’t think one ability at 1st, 5th and 15th is enough to help balance the sorcerer. In my analysis of class abilities, I think its obvious that the sorcerer not only lacks flavor and individuality, but it lacks in utility and power.

Now as for spells - granted they cast more spells than anyone else but not by that much, balance that with very limited utility of spells known and I feel that the sorcerer’s spellcasting is actually rather balanced with every other class, especially the cleric and specialist wizard. Add to this - magic items like pearls of power, scrolls, wands, etc. (which is part of the wizard’s design as they are the only class to include an item creation option as a class ability) and the playing field balances even more. Wizards by design are meant to have an arsenal of spells and wands as part of their “core balance” just as Rangers and Druids are “balanced” based on the assumption that they have an animal companion.

Class………Ave. Maximum Spells Per Day…|…Ave Spells Known…|…Preparation
Cleric………………….5.6/SL…………………….22 / SL……………….Prepared / No Fail
Druid………………….4.7/SL……………………..17 / SL……………….Prepared / No Fail
Core Sorcerer…………6/SL……………………….4 / SL…………………Unprepared / Fail
Wizard………………...4/SL……………………….37 / SL……………….Prepared / Fail
Specialist Wizard……..5/SL………………………..***………………….. Prepared / Fail
*** As Wizard minus restricted School(s) otherwise still unlimited arcana.
Alt.Sorcerer…………6/SL……………………4.6 / SL…………Unprepared / Undecided

CLASS ABILITIES
(Class Abilities {Special column} but counts Spells as a single Class Ability. Counts iterations of an ability as separate abilities where Iterations are such things as stacking Sneak Attacks. Does not count weapon and armor proficiency feats.)

Cleric = 5 abilities (including spontaneous swapping)
Druid = 25 abilities (including spontaneous swapping; 17 without iterations)
Core Sorcerer = 2 abilities
Wizard = 7 abilities
Barbarian = 24 abilities (9 without iterations)
Bard = 15 abilities (12 without iterations)
Fighter = 11 abilities
Monk = 33 abilities (includes AC increase and speed; 25 without iterations)
Paladin = 19 abilities (11 without iterations)
Ranger = 18 abilities
Rogue = 24 abilities (10 without iterations)

The average number of class abilities:
Pure Casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) = 12 abilities (10 w/o iterations).
Pure Melee (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) = 23 abilities (13 w/o iterations)
Hybrid-Caster (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) = 17 abilities (13 w/o iterations)

Your suggestion of an ability @ 1,5,15 would up the sorcerer to 4 abilities. Even if we consider spellcasting to be 2 abilities because it is more powerful than other classes, its only 5 abilities. Even the other Pure Casters, Wizard included have a minimum average of 10. A cleric has only 5 but has better, armor, better HD, better melee skills, better saves, better skills, etc.

How do we make the Sorcerer “feel” in the mechanics to be an “INNATE” caster that casts purely as “just raw power that they direct at will” without unbalancing the class or writing a new magic system?

Grant a bonus Feat at first level: Still, Silent, or Eschew Materials.

While at first it seemed inspired to let the Sorcerer's spells be handled as Spell like abilities (to match the flavor text), I'm pretty confident that even if this was the only thing you changed it would still make the Sorcerer unbalanced.

I feel that giving the Sorcerer Eschew Materials for free is the right way to go. I know that you feel that this doesn't really set the Sorcerer's casting enough apart from the Wizard's, but what if you describe it as being different?

I agree with Spell-Like abilities on the whole if for no other reason it forces the need for Psionic-Like Thematics, which is adding more rules to the class that are unnecessary. Its cool, but unnecessary for a Core build. For an advanced class – maybe. As for those that argue characters don’t get Spell-Like Abilities, that is an incorrect assumption. Many Races and PrC’s grant them as well as the Cleric, Bard, and Paladin core classes – just not as the main “magic” system. Thus I am conceding the point that the sorcerers “spells” should not be all spell-like abilities.

With that said, I do still like the idea of having them acquire a few true innate spell-like abilities over time: Currently 4 by 20th level in “Option 2”. However, I am thinking of limiting the choice of spells for these abilities as follows: “This spell-like ability becomes a ‘Personal’ target spell regardless of the spell’s original target(s).” Thoughts?

On the innate casting, as you suggest I am leaning toward giving Eschew material as a permanent ability/restriction to the Sorcerer’s spellcasting. This grants them a more “innate” casting feeling rather than the arcane “formulae” and more alchemical feeling to casting that Wizard’s have. On one hand it is a boon because it does away with material components. It is a restriction because it now Bans all spells form the spell list that require a material component over 1gp.
1st: Identify
2nd: Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Leomund’s Trap, Magic Mouth
3rd: Illusory Script, Nondetection, Sepia Snake Sigil
4th: Animate Dead, Arcane Eye, Fire Trap, Scrying, Stoneskin
5th: False Vision, Magic Jar, Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Sleep
6th: Analyze Dweomer, Circle of Death, Contingency, Create Undead, Legend Lore, Repulsion, Symbol of Fear, Symbol of Persuasion, Tenser's Transformation, True Seeing, Undeath to Death, Wall of Iron
7th: Drawmij’s Instant Summons, Forcecage, Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion, Mordenkainen’s Sword, Project Image, Scrying (Greater), Simulacrum, Symbol of Stunning, Symbol of Weakness, Vision
8th: Binding, Clone, Protection from Spells, Symbol of Death, Symbol of Insanity, Sympathy, Temporal Stasis, Trap the Soul
9th: Astral Projection, Refuge, Shapechange, Teleportation Circle

I know how you feel about following the flavor text when creating this Sorcerer version, but how do you feel about adding to the flavor text, as long as it doesn't contradict the original text?
{snip}

While I love the way you put the description and it makes perfect sense. There is only one problem, if for no other reason, this is a no-no as the flavor text is Non-OGL, assuming I understand the OGL/D20 agreement correctly. If I am wrong on this, please point out the section/subsection of the OGL I missed. Keeping to the OGL is very important to me as I am not looking to simply build a House Ruled sorcerer. I am looking to build something that “could” eventually see print.

We can create “Khaalis’s Players Handbook” and use the Sorcerer class and change the mech all we want, as it is OGL, but we cant touch the Flavor Text as it is Non-OGL. Other than that, I could technically name this class “Hedge Wizard” and write any text I wish with mech to match and we would be home free.
Unfortunately we are bound to the flavor text if we want to “fix” the mech for the existing class.

However, I will certainly agree that the sorceror does NOT match its flavor text, and it'd be nice to see one that does. Having scanned your proposals, I think you're doing a great job of matching the flavor (though I'd get rid of Spellcraft as a class skill), but are tending to overpower the most powerful spellcasting class with your bonus feats.

As seen in the analysis above, I don’t see the class as being overpowered by the addition of class abilities and have I looked into this a lot. Not only do class abilities make the sorcerer unique from a wizard, but it balances the class to the rest of the core classes in utility and sheer ability.

The average number of class abilities:
Pure Casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) = 12 abilities (10 w/o iterations).
Pure Melee (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) = 23 abilities (13 w/o iterations)
Hybrid-Caster (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) = 17 abilities (13 w/o iterations)

Even if we sell ourselves short and compare against Only the pure casters, sell even shorter and remove the Druid. The Cleric and Wizard average 6 Class Abilities. Even if we count the Sorcerer’s spell power as 2 class abilities (which I feel is unwarranted as they are not that far ahead of the other classes, especially the cleric) that still leaves room for 4 more class abilities. As I have stated, I don’t think Druid should be ignored, but I DO feel that it skews the results. Which is why in my build I have only granted a total of 9 abilities (10 if you want to count spells as 2), which balances them to the other caster classes.

I disagree these skills fit the flavor. the quote goes on to say the sorcerer uses spells to sway others or gain information. From this, I would conclude the information gathering skills (gather information and sense motive) are not class skills because the sorcerer uses spells instead of skill. Also, one could conclude that diplomacy and bluff are out for pretty much the same reason. Only intimidate seems to fit because of the earlier part about "powerful presense." I suppose you could include diplomacy because of the part about being a "face" for a party. But I really have a problem with bluff. I see no basis at all for that.
Also, purely balance-wise, if you give the sorcerer all the charisma interaction skills and 4 skill points/level, you really remove a lot of reason to ever play a bard. Actually, I think you have turned the sorcerer into a bard (light armor, d6 hit die).

On skills:
The only issue I have with your assessment on Gather Info and Sense Motive is that by following the logic, to make the Sorcerer match the description, you are saying that all sorcerers must Know divination spells? As someone else mentioned – a sorcerer should not be forced to choose specific spells to perform a base function of the class as it is described.

The sorcerer can use spells to augment ANY of their functions but not necessarily rely specifically on them to do a task. Being a diplomat, negotiator and front to the party involves more than just diplomacy. Bluff, gather info and sense motive are just as much a part of the schema – that’s what the Front to a party is for, its their job.

As for Bluff, the 3.5 sorcerer includes it because as I said earlier, it is part of the whole diplomat, spy, front flavor text. Intimidate I usually have an issue with (even though I have included it due to people’s arguments) because as written, the sorcerer is charismatic but not what one would consider intimidating.

I can see an argument for no Gather Info but on the same hand I consider this a big part of being a face for the party. The argument to include it falls within the Bard. The Bard has a slew of mind-affecting abilities designed to influence people – yet they still get the core skill. Magic is not always the answer.

As for stepping on the Bard’s toes: Bards should NOT hold the monopoly on Charismatic interaction. Clerics, Paladins, Rogues and Sorcerers should all just as easily be able to fill the Charismatic role if they so choose. Not to mention pure ability - Bards are much more than social – they also gain the following skills that sorcerers don’t:
Appraise, Balance, Climb, Decipher Script, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and last but not least, and the most key ability of all, and what truly defines the Bard’s niche – Knowledge (All).
And the Bard Still gets more skill points than the alt.sorcerer.
How does this step on the bard’s toes?

Khaalis, when I said higher level spell casting, I was refereing to the extra spells known. I believe they now get 2 per sorc level with your version. I think that's already a big boost, and so from there only small tweaks are needed.

Actually they start with 6 Cantrips and 2 1st, then 2 spells per level.
Thus Known Spells by 20th level: Core Sorcerer = 43 vs. Alt.Sorcerer = 46

That’s only a gain of 3 spells known. If you include the Spell Path, that’s a total of 13 more known spells by 20th level than the Core sorcerer.
Is that really so much more powerful? That just brings the sorcerer to be comparable to a wizard who only has a spellbook with their Free spells in it, and that never once scribed a spell into the books. Such a wizard with nothing but free spells knows ALL Cantrips (19 PHB), and 41 Spells + INT modifier in 1st-9th level spells (so: Wizard = 60+INT mod. spells (+anything they scribe) vs. Sorcerer = 59 spells). Still seems pretty even to me, but that just my opinion. Anyone else?

As far as ideas to give to sorcs:
1) They gain some kind of bonus with intelligent items.
2) They can burn hp or spells to gain greater spellcasting (or just an innate 1/day thing like my irthos ixen idea)
3) They can specialize with certain spells so they automatically still and silent certain ones.
4) They can enhance items for brief periods of time. (really like this one).
5) There blood has medicinal or magical properties.
6) They can transfer their power to others to give certain effects.
7) When they die, there aura spreads and give a temporary morale bonus to their allies.
8) They can talk to magical creatures or elements or elementals.
9) They can abosrb magical power.

First thing – great list of ideas.
1) Thought this is a creative idea, I personally hate Intelligent items. With that said, if the idea had enough support I would think about, though if there was ever something that could imbalance a game – Intelligent Items/Artifacts are it.
2) I have in the past used:
Power Manipulation: The sorcerer may increase the potency of the spells they shape, adding up to their Charisma modifier in effective caster levels for determining spell effects. The drawback to this, is that the sorcerer sustains 1d4 points of physical damage and 1d4 points of subdual damage per additional effective level of increased potency.
3) This is something similar to the Spell Path abilities. Receiving a permanent metamagic feat might be fitting.
4) What do you mean by enhance items? Similar to the “Weapon Channel” ability in the first post?
5) Though blood magic is a great topic, it generally evolves into a whole magical system unto itself. Not sure we wish to tackle that for a core class revision.
6) How does this differ from spells? Are you saying some form of a Spell-Like Ability that mimics buff spells or Bardic Morale bonuses?
7) I commented on this one in your thread.
8) I plan to use the Bonus Language aspect for certain sorcerer paths.
9) I like this idea, though it really gets into the whole Spellfire debate. Though it could be developed into a minor form of spell slot regeneration or limited self-healing.

Thoughts?

This may also explain why Sorcerers get to ignore ASF in light armors (if you choose to let them do so) when Wizards don't: The required somatic component for a Sorcerer is much simpler and easier to execute than the complex movements required by a Wizard.

This is a discussion I haven’t even gotten to yet. What are people’s feeling on this? Allowing light armor simply removes the non-proficiency penalty to all actions, it does not effect casting. Without granting Light armor, the sorcerer can still technically wear Leather and Padded with no penalty since it has no Armor Check Penalty. However, anyone who has ever worn any kind of armor knows that a chain shirt is actually easier to wear than Padded or what the PHB described as Leather Armor (which is more of a plate-mail style of hardened leather plates over soft leather under armor). Allowing Light armor just means the sorcerer can also wear a chain shirt without armor check penalty to all actions.

As for ASF, since the sorcerer is not casting in the same manner as a wizard, channeling magic and going through the same kind of somatics, and their magic is innate, should they be able to overcome the ASF on light armor?


Thoughts, comments, rebuttals?

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Khallis,

Excellent work so far. However, at this point I'd like to chime in and reinforce something that a similar poster has described as "make sure it can all fit on 2-3 pages". That is, as a core class, the alt.sorcerer is failing the K.I.S.S. test, with too many variables coming into play. You, I, and many on these boards may be in our mature years and have tons of gaming experience, and complex character creation rules don't phase us. Howver, if you want your alt.sorcerer to succeed as a published core class for D&D, it has to be simple.

I agree with d6 HD, 4 + Int bonus skill points, and the proposed skill selection. I agree with keeping simple weapon proficency. I disagree with armour proficiency of any kind - if people learn to fight, they learn to use weapons and to use those weapons to defend themselves against blows, not to wear armour. I think sorcerers should have the Eschew Materials feat as bonus feat, but still cast spells with verbal and somatic components (manifesting your innate power to launch a fireball may well require loud vocalisations accompanied by dramatic gestures - how do you "psych yourself up" otherwise?).

I like the heredity/spell path concepts, but IMO these create the biggest complexity in your alt.sorcerer. A word from the wise - copy an existing mechanic so the 12 year olds can understand it. If a person can understand how the cleric domain system works, they should be able to understand how the alt.sorcerer heredity/spell path system works. My suggestion is as follows:

At 1st level, a sorcerer chooses one heredity or spell path. Each heredity or spell path grants the following:

1. One or two additional skills as class skills, bonuses to 2 or more skills, or a bonus feat;
2. A bonus language;
3. One spell-like ability replicating a 0-level spell ("Innate Ability") at 2nd level;
4. One spell-like ability replicating a 1st level spell ("Improved Innate Ability") at 7th level;
5. One spell-like ability replicating a 2nd level spell ("Greater Innate Ability") at 13th level;
6. One spell-like ability replicating a 3rd level spell ("Master Innate Ability") at 19th level;
7. One bonus spell known at each spell level except 0-level.

There should be around 20 heredities and spell paths; many good ones have already been suggested (touched by the divine, dragon's blood, child of nature, ones roughly equivalent to specialist wizards (enchanter, conjurer, evoker etc.), and so on).

The innate ability spell should typically be a personal-enhancement spell, not an offensive one.

Finally, the 2 additional spells known per class level should be limited to 1 from any level the sorcerer is able to cast, and 1 from any level lower than the maximum level the sorcerer is able to cast (bearing in mind the sorcerer will automatically know a spell of the highest level he is able to cast from his heredity/spell path). This both balances out the bonus known spell from heredity or spell path and ensures the sorcerer knows more lower level spells than higher level ones (and each sorcerer will end up knowing at least 9 0-level spells: 6 from 1st class level, 1 from 2nd class level, and 1 from 3rd class level).

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Khaalis]

From Al'Kelhar
I have omitted all the things we agree on as it takes up too much space to reply “I agree too” repeatedly.

However, at this point I'd like to chime in and reinforce something that a similar poster has described as "make sure it can all fit on 2-3 pages". That is, as a core class, the alt.sorcerer is failing the K.I.S.S. test, with too many variables coming into play. You, I, and many on these boards may be in our mature years and have tons of gaming experience, and complex character creation rules don't phase us. Howver, if you want your alt.sorcerer to succeed as a published core class for D&D, it has to be simple.

I do understand this concept. The fully mutable Class idea is out for the base build. A future “Advanced” build can change that (such as we may be seeing in the Advanced Players Handbooks that’s coming out).
I will be keeping in mind that the classes are: Druid (4.25 pages), Bard (3.75 pages), Cleric, Paladin & Core Sorcerer (3.5 pages), Monk (3.25 pages), Ranger & Wizard (3 Pages), Rogue (2.5 pages), Fighter (1.75 pages).

I disagree with armour proficiency of any kind - if people learn to fight, they learn to use weapons and to use those weapons to defend themselves against blows, not to wear armour.

This I would like to discuss and get various opinions on before I make any kind of decision.

From a Purely Game mechanics argument:
Why does anyone, especially the sorcerer-like Bard, get armor usage then?
Armor is the D&D system’s protection. Weapons in D&D have nothing to do with protection unless you consider their use a part of the whole “amorphous” HP system. Also, if weapons are a part of defense and part of the HP system, then do people's HP go down when unarmed? If weapon use is defense, wizards should either get no weapon proficiency or even lower HP because they don’t train in weapon use, they only get a list of the most generic and “simple” weapons that even a monkey could use without effect.

From a real world perspective (I know RL is a dirty word when discussing fantasy but…):
I have received some (I am by no means an expert) training in various types of martial combat ranging from Bows and Crossbows (and Firearms), Classical Fencing, Kendo, medieval weapon fighting (swords, maces, shields – SCA style), quarterstaffs/bo-stick, and some Aikydo (and even worn Flack Jackets). The one thing in common to all but 1 of these styles (Aikydo), is that the first thing I learned was how to wear the appropriate protection. In Aikydo it is because only the advanced students learn the use of a Katana after learning all of the defenses of the style. Even the lowliest person who takes up a weapon to train in is going to be given, at the very least, simple padded armor. Until you become a proficient fighter, your master won’t risk serious harm by letting you fight without protection, even when training with wooden swords. In melee weapon martial training defense is just as much part of the training as the weapon use itself.

Again however, I would like to hear more points of view on this.

I like the heredity/spell path concepts, but IMO these create the biggest complexity in your alt.sorcerer. A word from the wise - copy an existing mechanic so the 12 year olds can understand it. If a person can understand how the cleric domain system works, they should be able to understand how the alt.sorcerer heredity/spell path system works.

While I understand the concept of simplicity for the broadness of the reader base, why do you say the Spell Path concept is so complex? Do people really have that much difficulty with making choices or do they have to have everything cookie-cutter?

My suggestion is as follows:
At 1st level, a sorcerer chooses one heredity or spell path. Each heredity or spell path grants the following:
1. One or two additional skills as class skills, bonuses to 2 or more skills, or a bonus feat;
2. A bonus language;
3. One spell-like ability replicating a 0-level spell ("Innate Ability") at 2nd level;
4. One spell-like ability replicating a 1st level spell ("Improved Innate Ability") at 7th level;
5. One spell-like ability replicating a 2nd level spell ("Greater Innate Ability") at 13th level;
6. One spell-like ability replicating a 3rd level spell ("Master Innate Ability") at 19th level;
7. One bonus spell known at each spell level except 0-level.
The innate ability spell should typically be a personal-enhancement spell, not an offensive one.

I have some questions here.
* If I am reading this correctly, you want the Innate Ability linked to the Spell Path and would be specifically defined for that spell path? For example a Dragon Spell Path Sorcerer would at 7th level gain a specifically defined 1st level spell-like ability (such as endure elements). The player would get no choice in what the Innate Ability was?
* What kind of bonus language would you give to a sorcerer with no defined heritage? A spell path that is meant to be “generic”?
* Why no bonus spell known at 0-Level? Curious.
Any other reason than the fact that Cleric domains don’t have a 0-level spell?
Just FYI - The Arcane Domains from Unearthed Arcana do include 0-level spells.

There should be around 20 heredities and spell paths; many good ones have already been suggested (touched by the divine, dragon's blood, child of nature, ones roughly equivalent to specialist wizards (enchanter, conjurer, evoker etc.), and so on).

Lets see, the best place to start is use something from WotC so…
Generic Sorcerer would use the Arcane Domains from Unearthed Arcana (13): Abjuration, Antimagic, Battle, Cold*, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Fire*, Illusion, Necromancy, Storm*, Transmutation
Heredity Sorcerer would use the Heritage Domains (12): Children of Magic (Dragon, Celestial, Fiend, Shapeshifter, Storm Giant), Child of Nature, Child of the Elements (Air, Earth, Fire, Water), Divine Receptacle, Sorcerous Family

That would be 25 choices core, with the groundwork for any others to be added later (same as with Cleric Domains). Hows that? Maybe remove Fire and Cold from the Generic and use them for Fire and Water? Remove Storm and give that to the Storm Giant? That would drop it to 22 choices.

Finally, the 2 additional spells known per class level should be limited to 1 from any level the sorcerer is able to cast, and 1 from any level lower than the maximum level the sorcerer is able to cast (bearing in mind the sorcerer will automatically know a spell of the highest level he is able to cast from his heredity/spell path). This both balances out the bonus known spell from heredity or spell path and ensures the sorcerer knows more lower level spells than higher level ones (and each sorcerer will end up knowing at least 9 0-level spells: 6 from 1st class level, 1 from 2nd class level, and 1 from 3rd class level).

Lets look at the 1st 10 levels giving the 1st spell to highest slot, then the 2nd spell to the next lower spell…
1st: 6+d, 2+d
2nd: 7+d, 3+d
3rd: 8+d, 4+d
4th: 8+d, 5+d, 1+d
5th: 8+d, 6+d, 2+d
6th: 8+d, 6+d, 3+d, 1+d
7th: 8+d, 6+d, 4+d, 2+d
8th: 8+d, 6+d, 4+d, 3+d, 1+d
9th: 8+d, 6+d, 4+d, 4+d, 2+d
10th: 8+d, 6+d, 4+d, 4+d, 3+d, 1+d

Now lets look at the 1st 10 levels giving the 2 new spell to highest slot. This is very limiting and I doubt most would choose to do it but it will lead to a more balanced number of spells known.
1st: 6+d, 2+d
2nd: 6+d, 4+d
3rd: 6+d, 6+d
4th: 6+d, 6+d, 2+d
5th: 6+d, 6+d, 4+d
6th: 6+d, 6+d, 4+d, 2+d
7th: 6+d, 6+d, 4+d, 4+d
8th: 6+d, 6+d, 4+d, 4+d, 2+d
9th: 6+d, 6+d, 4+d, 4+d, 4+d
10th: 6+d, 6+d, 4+d, 4+d, 4+d, 2+d

So it comes down to the difference of 2 less known Cantrips in exchange for 1 extra known 4th level spell and 1 extra known 5th level spell at 10th level. (At maximum assuming the sorcerer didnt choose to say only take 1 5th level spell and say another 3rd level.)
10th: 8+d, 6+d, 4+d, 4+d, 3+d, 1+d
10th: 6+d, 6+d, 4+d, 4+d, 4+d, 2+d

What do people think? Is the restriction important enough to add to the rule?

Thoughts, comments?