From Stalker0
About the heredities from a material standpoint it is. {snip}
Actually the way it will look in the text is along the lines of this:
Magic Source: Each sorcerer’s magic is different and unique and manifests differently with them. Some sorcerer’s magical heritage is so lost in the ancient past of the lineage that the sorcerous power manifests in a focus more appropriate to the sorcerers personality and character. In some sorcerers however, the lineage of their heritage runs strong so strong in them that it influences the sorcerer and their magic. Choose a Path for your sorcerer: either a General Sorcerer or a Hereditary Sorcerer. The sorcerer’s path choice influences how their magic and abilities manifests within them. Once the sorcerer has chosen a path they they must then choose the specific nature of that path. General sorcerers choose a specific Thematic Spell Path, while Hereditary Sorcerers choose a specific heritage. See Table X-X for the details of the sorcerer paths.
Then we have the separate page (like domains do) with the table of choices, that will have a Format basically like this:
GENERIC SORCERER: Ability(ies) gained
Thematic Spell-List Choice List
(Name: Spells)
HEREDITARY SORCERER
Hereditary Choice List
(Heredity: Ability(ies); Spell List)
Short, sweet, simple.
About metamagic. I would put in a clause that says you can't freely metamagic a spell you couldn't normally metamagic. {snip}
See the “edit” to the text in the original post. This is all handled, I just hadn’t bothered to typw it all in from the text in the UA.
Also, you have to be really careful about freely letting players use metamagics that often a day. Even the one's in the minatures handbook (which require a whole other feat and can only be used 1/day) have sparked heated debates about abuse issues. Here's an alternative option to use charisma that's a bit less powerful.
Instead of freely granting metamagics, allow for a number of free levels of metamagic equal to your charisma mod. So a 18 cha sorc could empower two fireballs freely a day, or empower 4 fireballs, if they only cost one slot.
Well I’m not real sure I like the addition of a new mechanic especially since it kind of acts like spell points, and when the UA has one ready to go. So just for current sanity’s sake lets assume we keep it at the basic concept of “Free” uses per day like a Turn Ability. Especially since this is already self-limited. They may only use it their “free” uses per day. This is NOT granting the feat that they may use whenever they choose like a “Bonus Feat” would. It is like Turning. When your uses per day are gone – they’re gone.
However, with that said, there are 3 option to use with the mechanic as it is (like Turning) to limit the “abuse” factor even further.
1) Change the number of times per day from 3+CHA mod. to either a flat “3/day” or to “CHA mod./day” or even “1+CHA mod” (for those low Charisma Sorcerers).
2) Instead of saying
“Gain one metamagic feat of choice …”, we can limit the selection to those that could be used by a 1st level Sorcerer, thus only those with up to a 1 Spell Level adjustment (Eschew Materials, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell). This removes the Empower, Maximize and Quicken arguments (as well as Widen Spell).
3) This ability may only be used on spells of the sorcerer’s chosen spell path. That means they only have 1 spell per spell level they can use this “free” metamagic on, not all their spells. Makes the sorcerer really plan well on their construction.
** OR any combination there-of.
Btw, considerig your idea for turning I had a couple of other ideas to throw out there.
1) A turn check that allows a sorc to lower SR.
2) A turn check to gain resistance to certain effects.
3) A charisma check to allow sorcs to cast in antimagic fields
All good idea, though I am not sure where to fit in more abilities unless these are ideas for skills gained in place of the “Sorcerer Ability” on the table.
If your going to include a metamagic mechanic for sorcs, you have to give them metamagics as bonus feats. You can't just assume sorc will take them. Which brings me to my next thought.
Perhaps the generalist would gain a bonus metamagic feat, and then the metamagic mechanic either Khaalis or I worked out. But here's the sticker, we can apply the same system to the heredities (oh by the way, I like the name heritage better, what do you think?)
Actually the mechanic in this case IS the “bonus”. It is more limited than having the feat that they may use at will. It gives the sorcerer an innate ability to modifier their spells a few times per day. It is not a learned metamagic feat they can use at will.
As for the Heritage Sorcerer I am not sure what abilities they will receive yet but they should be magical and should represent their Heritage.
Maybe something such as
“Fear Aura” 3+Cha Mod per day for Draconic; or
”Alter Self” 3+Cha Mod per day for shapechangers (Just off the top of my head).
For instance anti-magic heritage gives the sorcs as bonus spells: dispel magic, greater dispelling, and maybe a couple of others. A sorc gains a number of points equal to his charisma mod per day. For every point he spends he can increase the caster level of his given spells (the ones from the list) by 1. So a sorc could gain a +4 to caster level on dispel magic, or +1 to dispel magic 4 times.
For an elemental heritage, let's say fireborn. You gain a fair number of fire spells. A number of times per day equal to your charisma mod, you gain ER 10 (fire) for 1 minute.
While I like the inherent ideas of Energy Resistance for the Children of the Elements, the effective bonus to Dispel Checks is already granted through the generic sorcerer spell path (all spell path spells are cast as if one level higher).
I have to again say I am not so keen on the “point system”. I would rather simply the mechanic, as others have suggested, to a “known” mechanic. Something like…
Energy Resistance: The sorcerer gains energy resistance (5) against their chosen element for one minute. This may be activated as a free action a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s charisma modifier.
This system has several advantages:
1) Another way for easier balance. Since spells known is such a commodity for sorcs, we can balance different heritage abilities based on the number of spells you gain. So some would get maybe 9 spells total, we just a bonus language or something, some might gain only one spell but give a really nifty bonus.
2) Another way to get away from cleric domains. Cleric domains all have 9 spells and a ability. These don't, they are unique to sorcs.
4) It differientiates sorcs from each other. Now they don't just have different abilities they gain them at different rates. So some sorcs may gain power quickly but it caps early, some may not see any real power until higher levels. That appeals to different types of players.
5) Reduces complexity. Before, for every heritage you need a lof of abilities and spells and whatnot. That's a lot of page space. Now each heritage has an ability and a couple of spells gained. That's a small paragraph and easy to understand.
But this is really much more complex.
It requires weighing and calculating. If all sorcerers gain the same number of spells known (10) it is much more simple. Uniformity I think is the best course as many others have suggested for certain aspects of the class build. The Path Template should be uniform. The abilities it grants are different, thus granting some differentiation, but it holds a standard template to help make balance issues much more simple to deal with.
I think part of the issue is answered above. There are not a “group” of abilities for each path any more. The abilities will be standardized and generic. The only thing in the core build to “differentiate” the different “breeds” of sorcerer will be the Path Choice and the ability and spell theme they gain from that choice. All abilities at later levels will be more generic like “Bonus Feat” or “Spell-Like Ability (1st)”. We aren’t going to get into something like:
Dragon gets SR at X level and ER at Y level.
Shapechanger gets Wild Shape at X level a Thousand Faces at Y level.
That stuff will come in the “Advanced” section. Now once we get to the “Advanced” section which will be optional rules and PrC’s – some of these will present great ideas to much further differentiate the sorcerers. The “Path” will determine what choices the sorcerer has to follow in the advanced options.
Does that help?
And PLEASE don’t take this as bashing your ideas because its not. I do agree with you on a lot of points (go check my original version in the first thread), but for a
Core Class Substitution Build I think there are certain “rules” we need to follow. Those rules are:
· Keep it Simple
· Use known mechanics
· Standardized Abilities
· Short and Concise Writing (2-4 pages with flavor text)
3) Its uses charisma more.
And this is easily mimicked by making the ability based on uses per day linked to Charisma, just like Turning. Again, as so many have pointed out, sticking to a known mechanic is the best course.
Again, please don’t get me wrong, I’m not vetoing anything – I am just stating the way I currently see things based on what has been said by everyone’s input to this point. We will see more when more people comment.
Comments and thoughts from anyone else? We need other’s input on Stalkers ideas.
