Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 2)

[Stalker0]

To Khaalis: Remember that when we say certain mechanics are complex, we are also going over multiple pages and multiple post to put all the pieces together sometimes... which makes it hard to see exactly what the wording of things is

That said, I looked over the new metamagic use. I was confused on one thing, is the bonus metamagic a "virtual" feat... meaning they only get it for the purposes of lineage spells, or do they get the feat, and can use it whenever, but only get it free on the lineage feats?

I like the system with two changes:
1) Drop heighten spell. Your basically saving I can make a 1st level spell as hard to resist as a 9th level spell for free when I'm 18th level. I think that's too much.
2) Allow them to choose from the +0 metamagics too. Sure they won't get the free benefit, but hey some people might like the option.

I looked over the lineages: And most I liked. Now another question, is every lineage going to have a specific list of spells like domains, or are you going to keep it where they can just pick any fire spell, or any good spell, etc. If its the latter, child of nature needs to be changed. The ability to pick any druid spell doesn't balance with its cost.

So looking it over with just that.
HD: 6
Free eschew materials.
4+int skills, with a couple of class skill additions.
Free metamagic for some spells.
One additional spell known per level, with a little kick on each one.


That seems like plenty to me. You've given it some flexibility, some coolness, and a little durability. I don't think it needs much more.

Now if you want to have something for higher levels, how about just giving them more of those virtual metamagic feats (for instance they got silent at level 1, now still at level 5 or something). Or kick up the lineage power (they get a +2 to caster levels on their ineage spells or something like that).

I don't like the SLA's, I don't see them as that cool. Its basically just more spells per day. Once I'm a high level sorc,I get a few more 1st and 0th level spells per day... doesn't seem that exciting to me. I think enhancing the abilities you've already given the sorc will be more flavorful and more worthwhile in the long run.


Finally, I'm casting my vote for no on light armor proficiency. The more combat training for sorcs can be done with just the better HD. That's already +1 hp per level, +2 at first level, that's a feat in itself. By giving sorcs light armor, your going to probably want to let them cast perfectly in it as well. Now we are pressing on the bard.

The bard got that ability because a lot of threads like this about bards also wanted to give them a little flavor. Now that they've gotten it, let's not ruin the bards flavor by imposing our own. There are plenty of other directions we can go with the sorc besides this route, and with what we've got already it probably would be too much anyway

 

[Al'Kelhar]

Why is it shallow? Whats wrong with statistics?

And... what the hell is YMMV?

I have nothing against statistics, I'm just suggesting that to use them to compare classes - whether core or PrC - is not particularly instructive. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

YMMV is actually something I picked up from these boards - I understand it's an acronym for "your mileage may vary", which I guess is a trade practices cop-out by car vendors in the US to ensure they're not sued for misleading advertising when the car they advertised as a certain l/km - sorry, mpg - never quite reaches that economy in real use. In this context, it really means "you may have a different perspective on this issue".

The above drops the choices to 13.

I was lumping what were previously called "heredities" and "spell paths" under the one heading called "Affinities". I think in a previous post you mentioned lists of both "heredities" and "spell paths" from several sources, and there were around 25. I like that sorcerers might be built around thematic lines, rather than ancestral lines, and I think this should be an option for the core class.

Actually it is an attempt to create a uniqueness to the sorcerer class. See the mission statement. The sorcerer is not supposed to be a red-headed step child of the wizard. It needs something to make it truly unique.

The difficulty with giving the sorcerer "unique" abilities which really set it apart from the wizard is that you need to compromise somewhere else, or you're over-powering the sorcerer. If you make using spells as spell-like abilities the "keystone" ability of the sorcerer, such that it really defines the character class - as rage does for the barbarian, music does for the bard, and wildshape does for the druid - you need to balance it somewhere else in the class design. As I think I've stated before, even the changes to Hit Dice and skills, with no change at all the spellcasting and no additional "unique" powers, is probably enough to re-balance the sorcerer with other core classes. If you intend to make spell-like abilities the "keystone" ability of the sorcerer, such that they gain lots of these powers and the powers improve dramatically over levels, you should reduce the sorcerer's spellcasting powers to balance the whole out.

The mechanics I pretty much agree on, but not sure on the progression. To make it more even, I would lean toward 2 (0), 6 (1st), 11 (2nd), 15 (3rd), 20 (4th).

However, are the 5 innate spell-like abilities the ONLY ability of the sorcerer?

I chose 2, 8, 13, 17 and 20 on the theoretical basis that minor increases in power should occur more frequently at higher levels because they have proportionately less effect as the character increases in levels. However, on reflection, the power difference between each level of spell increases anyway, such that the difference in power between a 4th level spell and a 3rd level spell is greater than the difference in power between a 3rd level spell and a 2nd level which is greater than the difference in power between a 2nd level spell and a 1st level spell, and so on. So a fixed number of levels between the acquisition of the spell-like abilities is fine.

As to number of spell-like abilities, on reflection I'd reduce it to 4 again (0-3rd), unless you're going to make compensatory changes to the sorcerer's spellcasting. Otherwise I think we're into the territory of making the sorcerer too powerful. See my comments above.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Khaalis]

MASS REPLY 3

From fuindordm

Re: sorcerer's relative power level
However, in my experience the typical wizard has about 4 favorite spells per level that they prepare and cast all the time, and that their much-lauded versatility is seldom put into practice.

And I find this to be a specifically campaign/DM orientation. If the party ever only does 1 type of thing, such as hunt 1 type of creature, or just dungeon crawls, then I fully agree with this assessment. However, in many of the games I have run and played in over the years I find this very untrue in a “broad” campaign setting. On one adventure the wizard may be all about slaying and have his favorite 4 spells per level, yet on another adventure it may all be about stealth, guile and information gathering, while on yet another it may be a planar jaunt. All 3 require an entirely different selection of spell-sets. While the wizard can easily and happily switch his skill sets from need to need – guess what? If the Sorcerer is a one-trick pony in only 1 of those 3 scenarios, he basically becomes worthless to the party for the other 2 scenarios. And that’s only 3 scenarios off the top of my head. I could come up with even more if I tried hard enough leaving the sorcerer even farther in the dust.

That's why I think adding more spells known should be balanced by giving them fewer spells per day. I don't want the new sorcerer to eclipse the wizard, and you're adding a *lot* of goodies.

I can understand not wanting the sorcerer to overbalance the Wizard, but I honestly feel that gaining 13 more spells over 20 levels versus a Wizard’s Unlimited Arcana is not even close to overpowering. As for other goodies – that we will see as the class fills out more. As I have tried to show, in pure statistics the class is vastly underpowered as it is. If a DM caters to the sorcerer then yes they can shine, but as I said in a well rounded campaign setting more times than not the sorcerer is left out in the cold with nothing to fall back on.

Re: lineage vs affinity... why debate this?
Re: spontaneous metamagic feats: I'd rather see this as one special ability that a sorcerer can choose rather than something all of them have. Maybe it could be a nice perk only available to the "general lineage" sorcerer.

One step ahead of you - this is already an ability that only one of the Lineages gets – general.

Re: components: Material components, while a pain in the butt to manage, are in my mind one of the most fundamental principles of real-world magical practice and thinking. Still, they should I think be more free-form, and the D&D components are often unbearable punnish or banal.

I would like to know where you come by the “in my mind one of the most fundamental principles of real-world magical practice and thinking”. Before making this a long reply and letting myself Hijack the thread to an unrelated topic – we might want to think about splitting this topic off to another more appropriate board. I will quickly state, however, that I have done some study of magic/theology from all over the world and I would have to say that I most strongly disagree with this statement. This only focuses one aspect of “magik” – alchemy and its ilk. Most other magics rely more on spiritual focuses like a Cleric’s holy symbol, such as the voodoo doll, the athum, etc. etc.

Re: spell-like abilities; I agree that it's more appropriate for these to evolve from the domain spells exclusively. However, I don't think it's a huge benefit to the class and would rather see this capped at third level spells. Rather, let them get access to special lineage abilities sooner and cap with some really exciting special ability at or near 20th level--something like spell resistance, damage reduction, change to elemental/fey/giant type, etc.

Ok. Some decent statements and ideas here. One thing I will say though is that I do not really want to see the sorcerer “change” into something at 20th level unless it uses the core mechanic example of “Perfect Self” from the Monk. Otherwise that type of ability falls to the prevue of the PrC, and we can evaluate that later as the end result of a Lineage PrC. As for the spell-like abilities/class abilities. You need to give an example as to the way it will falls out on the progression. Keep in mind I do not want to go over 10 class abilities to maintain balance with the other classes.

As for Spell-like abilities (and this applies to Al’s comments too) - only getting 4 spell-likes to max 3rd level isn’t very much. Is a 3rd level spell-like ability even worth it to take 20 levels of Sorcerer? I think not.

What kind of lineage abilities are you referring to?

Currently what I am looking at the following spread of 10 abilities:

1….. Lineage, Spells (+ disadvantage of Aura)
2….. Innate Ability (0)
4….. Arcane Sense
6….. Innate Ability (1st)
10… Lineage Ability
11… Innate Ability (2nd)
15… Innate Ability (3rd)
16… Lineage Ability
20… Innate Ability (4th)

Some ideas I was toying with the table above…
GENERAL SORCERER
Lineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with magic grows over time. At 10th level the sorcerer gains spell resistance equal to the sorcerer’s class level. At 16th level the sorcerer’s spell resistance increases to 10+ the sorcerer’s class level.

CELESTIAL SORCERER
Lineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with their celestial lineage grows over time. At 10th level the sorcerer gains a permanent celestial aura as a supernatural ability that provides a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saving throws. It also functions in the same manner as a protection from evil spell (at the sorcerer’s class level). This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn. At 16th level the sorcerer’s celestial aura improves to provide a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws, to themselves and all those within 10’ of the sorcerer. It also functions in the same manner as a magic circle against evil spell (at the sorcerer’s class level). This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.

In the Celestial domain, why not add a couple of healing spells? Honestly, with the cleric domains pillaging the Sor/Wiz list for Lightning Bolts, Prismatic Spheres and Power Words I don't see any reason why you shouldn't do the same. If you're concerned about niche protection, just make them a level or two higher.
Example: Celestial Sorcerer Domain (PH only):
Light, Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Searing Light, Cure Moderate Wounds, True Sight, Planar Ally, Holy Aura, Gate

Healing will remain the special perk to the Divine Receptacle lineage, and it will be based on worship. I really don’t want to break the fundamental balance of arcane casters don’t heal on a wide range. Though I do like your suggestions above (though I think you accidentally swapped true sight and planar ally and missed 7th level) . Keep in mind though that “celestials” are not clerics. They are embodiments of good and the champions of that cause.

I would like to hear some other opinions on the healing spells. Also keep in mind that with the way we are developing this – people will change these spell lists left-and-right.

And I still think getting more known spells is enough of a goody; the +1 CL / +1 DC is just overkill.

This was taken right from UA, but I agree to dropping it in light of all else they gain.


From Stalker0

To Khaalis: Remember that when we say certain mechanics are complex, we are also going over multiple pages and multiple post to put all the pieces together sometimes... which makes it hard to see exactly what the wording of things is

I will fix that tonight by posting what I have so far as the main class mechanic and the few Lineages that are formed as examples.

That said, I looked over the new metamagic use. I was confused on one thing, is the bonus metamagic a "virtual" feat... meaning they only get it for the purposes of lineage spells, or do they get the feat, and can use it whenever, but only get it free on the lineage feats?

Does this edit help clarify?
“Gain one metamagic feat of choice from either: Eschew Materials, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell (only feats with up to a 1 spell level adjustment may be chosen for this ability). This metamagic feat is a virtual feat that may be used “on-the fly” to effect any lineage spell (and only lineage spells) the sorcerer knows, a number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. This feat is used without prior preparation, increased spell level or extended casting time. The maximum level of spell to which a caster can apply a metamagic feat is equal to the maximum spell level they are capable of casting, minus the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. If the result of this calculation is less than 0, then that metamagic feat cannot be used on any of the sorcerer's spells. A caster can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell, or even the same metamagic effect more than once (if allowed by the feat's description). However, to determine the maximum level of spell that can be so affected, add together the spell level adjustments given for the various feats. The Heighten Spells feat may be used to increase a spell's effective level (for purpose of save DC's and so on) up to the maximum spell level you are capable of casting. The spell is treated as a spell of that level for purposes of save DC and similar effects, but does not require a higher level spell slot.

I like the system with two changes:
1) Drop heighten spell. Your basically saving I can make a 1st level spell as hard to resist as a 9th level spell for free when I'm 18th level. I think that's too much.
2) Allow them to choose from the +0 metamagics too. Sure they won't get the free benefit, but hey some people might like the option.

1) The only issue with this is that we are arguing the “correctness” of the Heighten feat’s design. I will think on this, but since the ability is being used verbatim from the official text, I am not sure I want to tinker with it, especially when I agree with the concept overall. Why shouldn’t an 18th level sorcerer with their “innate spell shaping” be able to make a 1st level spell harder to resist?
2) What do you mean here? The ones listed on the table are +0 and +1 spell level feats and it states “ (only feats with up to a 1 spell level adjustment may be chosen for this ability)”. Does this need to be re-worded?

I looked over the lineages: And most I liked. Now another question, is every lineage going to have a specific list of spells like domains, or are you going to keep it where they can just pick any fire spell, or any good spell, etc. If its the latter, child of nature needs to be changed. The ability to pick any druid spell doesn't balance with its cost.

To answer this, it is dependant on the lineage. Only the “General Sorcerer” will have the List to choose from for “Lineage Spells”. The others will be more restricted such as the Celestial example. It gains a Lineage Spell List, but it also gains the benefit of allowing them to choose spells from specific “non-Wizard” spells.

As for Nature, they will also receive a specific Lineage Spell list. This is currently looking like 0-Know Direction and then Summon Natures Ally I-IX. Then they will also be able to choose any Druid spell (ie – including healing) as a sorcerer spell. The flip side is that they cannot learn Necro magic that controls or creates undead, as undead do not belong to the natural order.

So looking it over with just that…
HD: 6
Free eschew materials.
4+int skills, with a couple of class skill additions.
Free metamagic for some spells.
One additional spell known per level, with a little kick on each one.

Again, I will post an updated “overview” to make it easier to see. Also – the free metamagic as stated earlier is only for the General Sorcerer.

That seems like plenty to me. You've given it some flexibility, some coolness, and a little durability. I don't think it needs much more.
I don't like the SLA's, I don't see them as that cool. Its basically just more spells per day. Once I'm a high level sorc,I get a few more 1st and 0th level spells per day... doesn't seem that exciting to me. I think enhancing the abilities you've already given the sorc will be more flavorful and more worthwhile in the long run.

The innate spell-like abilities will likely remain in some form unless a better list of class abilities can be agreed upon. Spell-like Abilities are more than just more spells-per day, they:
1) Free up a spell known slot for another spell of choice but retain the flavor of the sorcerer’s thematic element, and
2) They are spell-like – thus no components, no arcane failure, etc. Imagine a Sorcerer with Knock as a spell-like ability? Only way to imprison this person is to place them in an anti-magic field. Binding hands, taking away components, gagging – doesn’t matter. Its an at-will ability.

As for the power-level factor, I agree on the 0-level thing. The more I look at it the more I think they should start at 1st level, maybe this especially since arcane sense IS a 0-level spell-like. And when it comes down to it, how many people could care less about being able to cast say Light 3 times per day. Woo-Hoo…. Not! Most people don’t use their Cantrips for anything more than Prestidigitation the most useful of all Cantrips, and Detect Magic.
1….. Lineage, Spells (+ disadvantage of Aura)
2….. Arcane Sense
4….. Lineage Ability
6….. Innate Ability (1st)
10… Lineage Ability
11… Innate Ability (2nd)
15… Innate Ability (3rd)
16… Lineage Ability
20… Innate Ability (4th)

Now if you want to have something for higher levels, how about just giving them more of those virtual metamagic feats (for instance they got silent at level 1, now still at level 5 or something). Or kick up the lineage power (they get a +2 to caster levels on their ineage spells or something like that).

I have thought about the virtual metamagic feats – but this would only apply to the General Lineage. I also do not want to just assign “Bonus Metamagic Feat” at X number of levels or we are back to being a clone of the wizard. In the afore mentioned table they get a mix of the innate and lineage specific abilities. Is this more acceptable?

Finally, I'm casting my vote for no on light armor proficiency. The more combat training for sorcs can be done with just the better HD. That's already +1 hp per level, +2 at first level, that's a feat in itself. By giving sorcs light armor, your going to probably want to let them cast perfectly in it as well. Now we are pressing on the bard. The bard got that ability because a lot of threads like this about bards also wanted to give them a little flavor. Now that they've gotten it, let's not ruin the bards flavor by imposing our own. There are plenty of other directions we can go with the sorc besides this route, and with what we've got already it probably would be too much anyway

Personally I still disagree. Armor does not make bard flavor. Baric Knowledge and Music and the jack-of-all-trades give bards flavor. The Bard is a Hybrid caster just like Rangers and Paladins. Bard is to Wizard as Ranger is to Druid as Paladin is to Cleric. Its get armor because it is supposed to be a melee/caster hybrid. Also keep in mind though I am giving the Sorcerer Light Armor proficiency I am NOT removing Arcane Spell Failure. All this ability does is remove the Non-Proficiency penalty to all other abilities (which is loop-holed by Padded and Leather Armor anyway).

Well lets try to make this semi-official from the posters to date…
For (11): Khaalis, Grayhawk, Fuindordm, Afrodyte, Stormborn, Knight_Errant, Buttercup, Eolin, Shades, Handforged, Seasong
Against (7): Stalker0, Maggot, Al'Kelhar, Vrylakos, Urbannen, Tuzenbach, Sonofapreacherman
If I missed any or placed in the wrong slot – sorry – it’s a lot of posts…
We will keep this out for Vote still but I can concede no armor especially when in all technicality they can already wear Half-of Light-Armor category without penalty anyway.

From Al'Kelhar

I have nothing against statistics, I'm just suggesting that to use them to compare classes - whether core or PrC - is not particularly instructive. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.
YMMV is actually something I picked up from these boards - I understand it's an acronym for "your mileage may vary", which I guess is a trade practices cop-out by car vendors in the US to ensure they're not sued for misleading advertising when the car they advertised as a certain l/km - sorry, mpg - never quite reaches that economy in real use. In this context, it really means "you may have a different perspective on this issue".

Thanks. Never seen YMMV as an acronym before. As for statistics – they are your friend. Personally I think they should be used a bit more often in design balance.

I like that sorcerers might be built around thematic lines, rather than ancestral lines, and I think this should be an option for the core class.

They still can be thematic, yet can be ancestral as well. The suggestions are be no means exhaustive. They are the core samples (like domains) that can be expanded upon at will.

For example lets make a new one on the fly. We’ll use one of Buttercup’s favorites: The Gypsy Sorcerer

GYPSY FAMILY LINEAGE: The Gypsy Family heritage is a deep lineage where a sorcerer comes from a long line of talented “true gypsies” or “gypsy seers”. The innate sorcerous talent is passed on in one or more offspring in a gypsy clan from generation to generation. Gypsy sorcerers have a strong innate understanding of magic's connection to the cosmos, and the families then train their offspring in all to do with the gypsy arts.
Benefit: Gypsy sorcerers gain Knowledge (Religion) and Sleight of Hand as a class skills. They may also divine the future as per an augury (as the spell), as a spell-like ability, a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. However, unlike other spell-like abilities, this augury still requires the use of a fortune telling medium such as bones, tarot, crystal ball, etc. worth 25gp (as the spell) but does not require the use of incense. Gypsy sorcerers may learn any spell of the Divination designator regardless of the spell list from which it comes as well as any spell with the Compulsion descriptor.
Special Limitation: Gypsy sorcerers, though adepts at divination and enchantment magic, they are also inept in areas of destruction. Gypsy sorcerer feel that purely destructive magic is an antithesis to the natural order and thus have no talent with harnessing evocation magic.
Lineage Spells: The sorcerer has a specific affinity with gypsy magic which manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer gains the Gypsy Lineage spell list.
Gypsy Lineage Spell List: 0–know direction; 1st-charm person; 2nd-detect thoughts; 3rd-clairaudience/clairvoyance; 4th-scrying; 5th-true seeing; 6th-gease/quest; 7th-insanity; 8th-power word stun; 9th-foresight
Lineage Abilities: Either two or three abilities related to the theme. (See chart options above)

The difficulty with giving the sorcerer "unique" abilities which really set it apart from the wizard is that you need to compromise somewhere else, or you're over-powering the sorcerer. If you make using spells as spell-like abilities the "keystone" ability of the sorcerer, such that it really defines the character class - as rage does for the barbarian, music does for the bard, and wildshape does for the druid - you need to balance it somewhere else in the class design. As I think I've stated before, even the changes to Hit Dice and skills, with no change at all the spellcasting and no additional "unique" powers, is probably enough to re-balance the sorcerer with other core classes. If you intend to make spell-like abilities the "keystone" ability of the sorcerer, such that they gain lots of these powers and the powers improve dramatically over levels, you should reduce the sorcerer's spellcasting powers to balance the whole out.

I understand where you are coming from, however… If this is how you really feel – then Monte’s Sorcerer from BoEM2 is fine for you (HD change, more skills, more skill points, reduced to its own spell-list).

In my opinion after play-testing that build – it still lacks in flavor, versatility, uniqueness and balance. Especially when compared to most of the other classes – not just the Wizard. Too many people balance the sorcerer just against the wizard. In my view, that in-and-of-itself is unbalanced. When there are classes like the Rogue, Monk, Druid, etc. they have to put into the general balance equation. Some see these as Power Classes. That’s fine. Maybe the Sorcerer should be one of them? Or maybe it should just be evenly balanced with the “average” power of the classes. Currently as it exists it is one of, if not the weakest class in the game both in flavor/uniqueness and overall functionality. It had the worst HD even though the class states it trains in combat more than a wizard. It has THE worst skills - even compared to a Fighter which has a host of other abilities, and as for skill points it is supposed to be a self-taught class, which if you look at every other self-taught they “begin” at 4+ points.

I do not feel that the minor changes to HD and Skills are all that are needed to balance the class or I would have used Monte’s BoEM2 Sorcerer. I also don’t feel that class abilities on top of this unbalance the class. Too many abilities? Yes. Too powerful abilities? Yes. But the right amount and power? No.

Now – you do bring up one really good argument, and something I have been trying to get a grasp of from all these posts. So many people have so many varying ideas of what a sorcerer IS and SHOULD BE that we STILL do not have a defining point for the sorcerer. As you state:
Barbarian = Fast Movement & Rage & DR
Bard = Music & Knowledge
Druid = Animal Companion & Nature Abilities & Wild Shape
Cleric = Domains & Turning Undead
Fighter = Feat Acquisition
Ranger = Fighting Style & Favored Enemy
Paladin = Smite & Grace & Spell-Like & Horse & Turning, & etc.
Wizard = Familiar & Item - Metamagic Feat Acquisition
Monk = Too many to count

The sorcerer has nothing unique to define it from a mechanics viewpoint. Should this be a mere 3 or 4 spell-like abilities? Hell, even a Paladin gets better than that. Do I think the sorcerer should get as much as a Paladin? NO – sorcerer spells are better. But they DO need something.
Arcane Sense is one such thing.
The innate spells are a good idea, though I am not sure it is a payout worth the cost of a Class Ability slot, though it could be.
Another idea that has been tossed about that I feel makes perfect sense would be similar to Divine Grace – basically a Sorcerers version of DR/SR.
Strength of Magic (Su): The sorcerer’s magic runs strongly through their blood. The innate nature of a sorcerer’s magical focus protects them from magical attacks. The sorcerer gains a competence bonus to all saving throws against spells or spell-like effects equal to their Charisma modifier.

As for the abilities, maybe the answer is to reduce the spell-likes to levels where they are more appropriate. And give better abilities at higher levels. Something more along this line. When is it good to get a spell like ability? 2 Spell Levels post when you get that spell level? Is getting a 0-level spell as a spell-like ability worth one of the 10 class level abilities for? Even a Paladin gets 2 other abilities besides Detect Evil @ will, and these wouldn’t even be at will.

1….. Lineage, Spells (+ disadvantage of Aura)
2….. Arcane Sense
3…..
4….. Strength of Magic
5…..
6….. Innate Ability (1st)
7…..
8….. Lineage Ability
9…..
10… Innate Ability (2nd)
11…
12…
13…
14… Innate Ability (3rd)
15…
16…
17… Lineage Ability
18…
19…
20… Perfect Self

Lineage Ability Examples:
Celestial: The sorcerer’s affinity with their celestial lineage grows over time. At 8th level the sorcerer gains a permanent celestial aura as a supernatural ability that provides a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saving throws. It also functions in the same manner as a protection from evil spell (at the sorcerer’s class level). This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn. At 17th level the sorcerer’s celestial aura improves to provide a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws, to themselves and all those within 10’ of the sorcerer. It also functions in the same manner as a magic circle against evil spell (at the sorcerer’s class level). This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.
General: The sorcerer’s affinity with magic grows over time. At 8th level the sorcerer gains spell resistance equal to the sorcerer’s class level. At 17th level the sorcerer’s spell resistance increases to 10+ the sorcerer’s class level.

This build would follow many of the other class builds, more lower-end abilities at low level then slowing the gain progression at higher levels balanced by the more powerful spell gain, but the class abilities at high level have to be worth reaching and not abandoning the class. This also sticks to the 10 class abilities I have been aiming at for broad-class balance.

This also helps on the Heighten Spell issue. Example if a 20th level Evoker Sorcerer (20 Charisma) took Heighten, they could only use it on: 0-light; 1st-magic missile; 2nd-flaming sphere; 3rd-lightning bolt; 4th-shout; 5th-wall of force; 6th-Bigby’s forceful hand; 7th-Mordenkainen’s sword; 8th-Otiluke’s telekinetic sphere; 9th-Bigby’s crushing hand up to 5 times a day. This list in actuality becomes: 4th-shout; 5th-wall of force; 6th-Bigby’s forceful hand; 7th-Mordenkainen’s sword; 8th-Otiluke’s telekinetic sphere

Remember – Metamagic cannot be used on Spell-Like abilities, that’s a different feat, and the sorcerer’s 1st-3rd spells are already changed to Spell-Like. Light is worthless to Heighten and you can’t heighten a 9th level spell. I think it is pretty balanced.


Thoughts? (I will post the revision as soon as I can.)

 

[Khaalis]

REVISION UPDATE

This is an alternate version of the base Sorcerer class as presented in the 3.5 Edition Player’s Handbook. The current version of the Sorcerer has very little to do with the material provided in the class description. This alternate version of the sorcerer is designed to allow for a sorcerer mechanic that matches the descriptions of the class as described in the Player’s Handbook, and that is to show a link between the sorcerer’s abilities and their heritage as well as to give the sorcerer more balance with the other core classes.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Sorcerers have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Charisma determines the effectiveness of a Sorcerer’s magic. To cast spells, a Sorcerer must have a Charisma score of 10+ the spell’s level. Sorcerers gain bonus spells based upon Charisma. The Difficulty Class of a saving throw against a Sorcerer’s spells is 10 + Spell Level + Sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6

CLASS SKILLS
The class skills of the Sorcerer are: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Profession, and Sense Motive.
Skill Points for 1st Level: (4+INT modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+INT modifier

BAB: Poor
SAVES: Will Good
1….. Aura, Lineage, Spells
2….. Arcane Sense
3….. -----
4….. Strength of Magic
5….. -----
6….. Innate Ability (1st)
7….. -----
8….. Lineage Ability
9….. -----
10… Innate Ability (2nd)
11… -----
12… -----
13… -----
14… Innate Ability (3rd)
15… -----
16… -----
17… Lineage Ability
18… -----
19… -----
20… Perfect Self

CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are class features for the Sorcerer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers have more time to study the art of fighting skills. Though not highly skilled, sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons but not with light armor nor with shields.

Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list though some sorcerers have access to “spells” from other spell lists where it is appropriate to their lineage and archetype. They can cast any spell they know without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
..........To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
..........Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Their base daily spell allotment is given on “Table 3-16: The Sorcerer” in the Player’s Handbook. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
..........A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A Sorcerer begins play knowing six 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of their choice. At each new sorcerer level, they gain 2 new spells. These spells may be acquired from any spell level that they currently may utilize, but only one may be applied to the highest spell level the sorcerer has access to.
..........Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
..........Sorcerer spells can also grow in time and evolve into more powerful versions of old spells. This is referred to as Spell Evolution. This concept is based on the concept of spell paths (by Sean K. Reynolds), a series of spells that build and grow upon the same basic premise. When a sorcerer acquires new known spells, and they have a spell that exists on a spell path with an appropriate higher-level spell available, the sorcerer can choose to “upgrade” the spell-path spell they already know, replacing the original spell with the upgraded spell. They may then fill the abandoned spell slot with another spell that is available to them of the same spell level. A sorcerer can only upgrade one spell in this manner at any given level, even if they have multiple options for upgrading.
[Example: Vond is a Sor5 who knows the invisibility spell. Upon reaching Sor6 he chooses to acquire a new 3rd-level spell known as one of his 2 new spells. Invisibility is a 2nd-level spell on the “Path of Invisibility” and invisibility sphere is a 3rd-level spell on that spell-path. Vond decides to upgrade his invisibility to invisibility sphere, which uses his new 3rd-level spell known slot. However, he now has an open spell known slot at 2nd level (formerly occupied by invisibility), which he may use to learn any other 2nd-level spell available to him.]
..........Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.
..........Also unlike wizards or cleric, the sorcerer’s innate magic serves as the focus for most common spells. As such the sorcerer can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1gp or less without needing that component. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1gp, the sorcerer must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.

Aura (Ex): Sorcerers have a particularly powerful aura of magic about them since they are a focus of innate raw magic. When viewed by detect magic or arcane sight the sorcerer radiates with the presence of a single magical aura of universal origin unless the sorcerer is of a lineage that lends them to a specific type of magic that can be read with detect magic, such as a General Abjurer Sorcerer will radiate an abjuration aura. The DC to determine a specific type of magic to the aura requires a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15+Sorcrerer class level).

Lineage: Each sorcerer’s magic is different and unique and manifests differently with them. Some sorcerer’s magical lineage is so lost in the ancient past that the power manifests in a focus more appropriate to the sorcerers personality and character. In some sorcerers however, their magical lineage runs so strongly in them that it influences the sorcerer and their magic. Each sorcerer chooses a lineage for their sorcerer. The sorcerer’s lineage choice influences how their magic and abilities manifests within them. Once the sorcerer has chosen a lineage they gain a set of abilities from that lineage. See “Table: Sorcerer Lineages” for the details of the sorcerer lineages.

Arcane Sense (Su): The sorcerer is so in tune with magic that they can feel magic flow through them as well as sense its presence and flow in all things around them as well. As a result of this deep attunement, at 2nd level, the sorcerer’s senses allow them to see as if using detect magic (as the spell) at will. This supernatural ability is activated as a free action and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description).

Strength of Magic (Su): The sorcerer’s magic runs strongly through their blood. The innate nature of a sorcerer’s magical focus protects them from magical attacks. At 4th level, the sorcerer gains a competence bonus to all saving throws against spells or spell-like effects equal to their Charisma modifier.

Innate Ability (Sp): The sorcerer is a manifestation of innate magic prowess. This innate magic grows in them slowly and eventually becomes a part of them. At 6th level, the sorcerer’s 1st level lineage spell becomes a spell-like ability, that may be used a number of times per day equal to their Charisma bonus. This does not count against the sorcerer's spells per day. The spell-like ability is used at the sorcerer's character level (including any caster level bonus from the sorcerer's Affinity). The spell-like ability's saving throw DC (if applicable) is Charisma based.
..........When this lineage spell becomes a spell-like ability, the sorcerer “loses” the spell as a known spell. This leaves the sorcerer with an empty 1st level spell slot that they may fill with any new 1st level spell available to them.
..........If the spell-like ability spell has an XP component, the sorcerer must still pay the XP cost each time they use the spell-like ability. If the spell-like ability spell has a material component with negligible cost (under 1gp), they do not need the focus to use the spell-like ability. If the innate ability has a material component for which a gold piece value is given, the sorcerer needs that component to use the spell-like ability.
..........Since this is a spell-like ability and not an actual spell, it cannot be convert into any other spell nor given up to pay a spell slot cost, nor can it be converted to a signature spell.
..........As a spell-like ability, the Innate Ability is not subject to metamagic feats which affect spells. However, the sorcerer can learn metamagic feats which affect spell-like abilities, such as Empower Spell-like Ability and Quicken Spell-like Ability (see Chapter 6 of the Monster Manual).
..........At 10th level, the sorcerer’s 2nd level lineage spell evolves into a spell-like ability, and at 14th level, the sorcerer’s 3rd level lineage spell evolves into a spell-like ability

Perfect Self (Ex): At 20th level, a sorcerer becomes a magical creature. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the sorcerer gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows them to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a non-magical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can still be brought back from the dead as if they were a member of their previous creature type.


EXAMPLE LINEAGES

GENERAL LINEAGE: The sorcerer's magical lineage is so old or so mixed that it has no overtly obvious source and takes on a more broad effect for the sorcerer.
Benefit: Metamagic Use: Gain one metamagic feat of choice from either: Eschew Materials, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell (only feats with up to a 1 spell level adjustment may be chosen for this ability). This metamagic feat is a virtual feat that may be used “on-the fly” to effect any lineage spell (and only lineage spells) the sorcerer knows, a number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. This feat is used without prior preparation, increased spell level or extended casting time. The maximum level of spell to which a caster can apply a metamagic feat is equal to the maximum spell level they are capable of casting, minus the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. If the result of this calculation is less than 0, then that metamagic feat cannot be used on any of the sorcerer's spells. A caster can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell, or even the same metamagic effect more than once (if allowed by the feat's description). However, to determine the maximum level of spell that can be so affected, add together the spell level adjustments given for the various feats. The Heighten Spells feat may be used to increase a spell's effective level (for purpose of save DC's and so on) up to the maximum spell level you are capable of casting. The spell is treated as a spell of that level for purposes of save DC and similar effects, but does not require a higher level spell slot.
Special Limitation: Sorcerers of this lineage, though adepts at a certain style of magic, are also inept in some areas. The sorcerer must choose any one school of magic that they cannot cast spells from, use spell-like abilities from or use spell completion or spell trigger items from. This school of choice can be any school other than Divination or Universal.
Lineage Spells: The sorcerer has a specific affinity for a theme of magic which manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer chooses one affinity from the following choices.

Abjuration: 0-resistance; 1st-shield; 2nd-resist energy; 3rd-dispel magic; 4th-remove curse; 5th-Mordenkainen’s private sanctum; 6th-greater dispel magic; 7th-banishment; 8th-mind blank; 9th-prismatic sphere
Antimagic: 0-detect magic; 1st-protection from chaos/good/evil/law; 2nd-obscure object; 3rd-dispel magic; 4th-minor globe of invulnerability; 5th-break enchantment; 6th-antimagic field; 7th-spell turning; 8th-protection from spells; 9th-Mordenkainen's disjunction
Battle: 0-daze; 1st-true strike; 2nd-protection from arrows; 3rd-greater magic weapon; 4th-fire shield; 5th-Bigby's interposing hand; 6th-Tenser's transformation; 7th-power word blind; 8th-moment of prescience; 9th-time stop
Conjuration: 0-acud splash; 1st-mage armor; 2nd-web; 3rd-stinking cloud; 4th-summon monster IV; 5th-wall of stone; 6th-acid fog; 7th-summon monster VII; 8th-maze; 9th-gate
Divination: 0-read magic; 1st-detect secret doors; 2nd-see invisibility; 3rd-arcane sight; 4th-arcane eye; 5th-prying eyes; 6th-true seeing; 7th-greater arcane sight; 8th-discern location; 9th-foresight
Enchantment: 0-daze; 1st-charm person; 2nd-Tasha’s hideous laughter; 3rd-suggestion; 4th-confusion; 5th-hold monster; 6th-greater heroism; 7th-insanity; 8th-mass charm monster; 9th-dominate monster
Evocation: 0-light; 1st-magic missile; 2nd-flaming sphere; 3rd-lightning bolt; 4th-shout; 5th-wall of force; 6th-Bigby’s forceful hand; 7th-Mordenkainen’s sword; 8th-Otiluke’s telekinetic sphere; 9th-Bigby’s crushing hand
Illusion: 0-ghost sound; 1st-disguise self; 2nd-invisibility; 3rd-major image; 4th-phantasmal killer; 5th-shadow evocation; 6th-mislead; 7th-mass invisibility; 8th-scintillating pattern; 9th-shades
Necromancy: 0-disrupt undead; 1st-ray of enfeeblement; 2nd-false life; 3rd-vampiric touch; 4th-fear; 5th-waves of fatigue; 6th-circle of death; 7th-control undead; 8th-horrid wilting; 9th-energy drain
Transmutation: 0-mage hand; 1st-expeditious retreat; 2nd-levitate; 3rd-haste; 4th-polymorph; 5th-baleful polymorph; 6th-disintegrate; 7th-reverse gravity; 8th-iron body; 9th-shapechange
​

Lineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with magic grows over time. At 8th level the sorcerer gains spell resistance equal to the sorcerer’s class level. At 17th level the sorcerer’s spell resistance increases to 10+ the sorcerer’s class level.


CELESTIAL LINEAGE: Celestial sorcerers are the descendant of a celestial outsider such as an angel far in their family’s past. Celestial sorcerers gain the following abilities and restrictions.
Benefit: Celestial sorcerers gain Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill as well as gaining Celestial as a bonus language. They may also detect evil (as the spell), as a spell-like ability, at will. Celestial sorcerers may learn any spell with the Light or Good descriptor as well as any spell from the Good cleric domain.
Special Limitation: Celestial sorcerers are strongly affected by their sorcerer blood. Due to this they may not be of any evil alignment nor may they take any Prestige Class or Template that involves racial or heredity related abilities unless they are specifically Celestial oriented (for example cannot take Half-Dragon). The celestial sorcerer may never learn any spell, spell-like ability, nor use any item that activates a spell or spell-like ability with the Evil or Darkness descriptor nor that belongs to the Evil cleric domain or Fiendish Lineage spell list (unless it is the same as one on the Celestial Lineage spell list).
Lineage Spells: The sorcerer has a specific affinity with celestial magic which manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer gains the Celestial Lineage spell list.
Celestial Lineage Spell List: 0–light; 1st-bless; 2nd-consecrate; 3rd-searing light; 4th-lesser planar ally; 5th-true seeing; 6th-planar ally; 7th-holy word; 8th-holy aura; 9th-gate
Lineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with their celestial lineage grows over time. At 8th level the sorcerer gains a permanent celestial aura as a supernatural ability that provides a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saving throws. It also functions in the same manner as a protection from evil spell (at the sorcerer’s class level). This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn. At 17th level the sorcerer’s celestial aura improves to provide a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws, to themselves and all those within 10’ of the sorcerer. It also functions in the same manner as a magic circle against evil spell (at the sorcerer’s class level). This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.

Thoughts?

 

[Halma]

REVISION UPDATE


Perfect Self (Ex): At 20th level, a sorcerer becomes a magical creature. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the sorcerer gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows them to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a non-magical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can still be brought back from the dead as if they were a member of their previous creature type.

Thoughts?

Man I love this. I have been lurking for quite sometime on your work here. Having played a Sorcerer in 3.0 (See Wulf Ratbane's story hour), I was struck by how under-powered the core Sorcerer class was compared to all other character archetypes. As a group we decided that the Monte Cook variant was a much better choice for a Sorcerer but it still felt a little bland compared to say the Druid. It really did have some very good improvements over the core Sorcerer, but I wanted more. You have certainly put a lot of time and energy into this well thought out Alternate version. I would just like to say Thanks a bunch!! Allowing the rest of the community the opportunity to see your thought process, and provide thier own input, makes me appreciate this board once again. I can't speak for the rest of this community but please keep up the great work here!!!! I also can't wait for the finished project!

As for Constructive criticism---
See above quote
What happens when a Perfect-self Sorc. goes into a Anti magic field? Do they blink out?

Only two Lineage's right now? Where is this Chart you mention?

For the General Lineage why only give the Metamagic feats for the Lineage spells? Why not allow them to be used with all of their spells? Thematic’s?


I am not sure that all of these are constructive. Please let me know if you need my current group to play test this Sorcerer Variant.

Thanks again,

Halma

 

[Essex]

I've been lurking around this thread for quite a bit. I must say,this is the best Alt.Sorcerer class I've seen yet. If you can find it, check out the old alt.sorcerer.domain for a rather comprehensive list of bloodlines/heredity spell lists, that would give some ideas for other heredities.

This is fantastic work, Khaalis.

 

[fuindordm]

This sorcerer is starting to look really yummy to me.

MASS REPLY 3

And I find [wizards using only a few spells per level] to be a specifically campaign/DM orientation. If the party ever only does 1 type of thing, such as hunt 1 type of creature, or just dungeon crawls, then I fully agree with this assessment.

Fair enough. It's true that the wizard is the ultimate customizable character. I guess this falls under the YMMV acronym.

I can understand not wanting the sorcerer to overbalance the Wizard, but I honestly feel that gaining 13 more spells over 20 levels versus a Wizard’s Unlimited Arcana is not even close to overpowering. As for other goodies – that we will see as the class fills out more. As I have tried to show, in pure statistics the class is vastly underpowered as it is. If a DM caters to the sorcerer then yes they can shine, but as I said in a well rounded campaign setting more times than not the sorcerer is left out in the cold with nothing to fall back on.

Especially with the 3.5 trend towards splitting spells with more than one use into multiple spells... it's a lot harder for the sorcerer to find spells with general utility. I would accept this IMC provided that the lineage spells are comparable to clerical domains--there may be one or two "money" spells in there, but the remainder are flavor/utility spells.

I would like to know where you come by the “in my mind [material components are] one of the most fundamental principles of real-world magical practice and thinking”.

From a background of mythology and cultural anthropology, rather than any modern magical practice. (E.g. Frasier's 'laws' of sympathy and contagion.) The distinction between a focus and a material component is minor in my mind. At any rate I agree that D&D's handling of materials/foci is rather silly and would shed no tears to see all sorcerers with Eschew Materials.

What I do think would be interesting and flavorful is if all sorcerers had a 'personal focus' for their spells. This could be a childhood toy that they associated with their emerging magic, a staff that they carved themselves while learning to control their power, a drug that allows them to access the right mental state, or even a minor ritual that they must perform along with the spellcasting at the beginning of an encounter.

As they gain levels, one of their class abilities can be learning to dispense with this focus.

Again borrowing a page from HERO, I would say that sorcerers can gain a minor benefit such as +1 caster level & DC to lineage spells if their focus is obvious and accessable (such as a staff), +1 to one or the other if their focus is inobvious and accessable (such as an old teddy bear or a drug), but no benefit at all if the focus is something that can't be taken away from the sorcerer.

Ok. Some decent statements and ideas here. One thing I will say though is that I do not really want to see the sorcerer “change” into something at 20th level unless it uses the core mechanic example of “Perfect Self” from the Monk. Otherwise that type of ability falls to the prevue of the PrC, and we can evaluate that later as the end result of a Lineage PrC.

Makes sense.

As for Spell-like abilities (and this applies to Al’s comments too) - only getting 4 spell-likes to max 3rd level isn’t very much. Is a 3rd level spell-like ability even worth it to take 20 levels of Sorcerer? I think not.

Yeah, I agree. That's why I think of the innate lineage spells as a good way to add flavor but relatively little power... and I'd favor keeping the 0-level lineage spell/innate spell just for the pleasant symmetry.

I like the examples of lineage abilities that I've seen so far.

Healing will remain the special perk to the Divine Receptacle lineage, and it will be based on worship. I really don’t want to break the fundamental balance of arcane casters don’t heal on a wide range. Keep in mind though that “celestials” are not clerics. They are embodiments of good and the champions of that cause.

OK by me. Another idea I had to balance sorcerous healing was to give them a double whammy: a healing spell in a sorcerer's domain had to be (a) at least one level higher than normal and (b) cost 2 spell slots to cast instead of one. But that extra mechanic makes things complicated. One could also borrow a page from AU and say that sorcerer's healing spells cause an equal amount of subdual damage to the sorcerer, since they're not channeling divine energy.

GYPSY FAMILY LINEAGE: The Gypsy Family heritage is a deep lineage where a sorcerer comes from a long line of talented “true gypsies” or “gypsy seers”. The innate sorcerous talent is passed on in one or more offspring in a gypsy clan from generation to generation. Gypsy sorcerers have a strong innate understanding of magic's connection to the cosmos, and the families then train their offspring in all to do with the gypsy arts.

Lineage Abilities: Either two or three abilities related to the theme. (See chart options above)

Very cool! For lineage abilities, I suggest you steal Monte Cook's "The Sight" (that allows a witch to know the level/HD of a creature, and perhaps a brief vision suggesting their relative importance/destiny--something like Min's ability in the Wheel of Time). For the second one... maybe something to enhance their skill with Enchantment/compulsion magic? Hmm...

Strength of Magic (Su): The sorcerer’s magic runs strongly through their blood. The innate nature of a sorcerer’s magical focus protects them from magical attacks. The sorcerer gains a competence bonus to all saving throws against spells or spell-like effects equal to their Charisma modifier.

I like this better than divine grace, although when combined
with the spell resistance that a general lineage sorcerer gets--wow!

Here's a thought--maybe this is an ability the sorcerer can activate as a free action (Cha bonus) times per day? I know, I know, I'm always the one saying "weaken this build!" It doesn't mean I don't like it! I'm just concerned about the sorcerer turning into the teflon mage--spells just roll off him.

1….. Lineage, Spells (+ disadvantage of Aura)
2….. Arcane Sense
3…..
4….. Strength of Magic
5…..
6….. Innate Ability (1st)
7…..
8….. Lineage Ability
9…..
10… Innate Ability (2nd)
11…
12…
13…
14… Innate Ability (3rd)
15…
16…
17… Lineage Ability
18…
19…
20… Perfect Self

I like this much better than the previous table. Things are looking a little sparse in the middle there--this would be a good place to stick an "Eschew personal focus" ability (see above suggestion).

Phew!

--Ben

 

[Stalker0]

Alright, now we got something we can work with

Hey Khaalis, just a note: SLA don't work in antimagic fields

Okay, overall I like it, good flavor, feels good, now let's get down to the gritty.

1) Just a conciseness change... I would take the paragraphs under spells that talk about spell chains and the ability to swap spells at 4th, 6th and so as abilities to put on the class list. When you have a big paragraph like that its easy to miss those details, and they are benefits of the sorc that should be hilited.

2) Do not underestimate arcane sense. For anyone who has played a paladin, detect evil and will is huge!! Detect magic is for much more than just checking items, you can detect all sorts of creatures, spell effects, etc. This ability lets teh sorc become a virtual magical trap finder himself!!!

PCs: Okay we get to the door
Sorc: I detect magic on the door.
DM: Yeah, there's evocation magic on the doorknob.
Rogue: Probably a magic trap I'll take a look.

3) I would drop strength of magic. They are already getting lineage abilities, and arcane sense, and innate abilities. I think we have plenty of flavor there already.

4) For the alignment based lineages (like celestial) I would put in a clause that says if they go evil they lose all lineage abilities and spells until they atone.

5) I wouldn't give the sorc a new spell when one of their lineage becomes a SLA. Hey even if they can cast it 6 times a day freely, they may want it 7 or 8 times as normal spells... and we already have two other ways for sorcs to trade up on spells, 3rd I think is a bit much.

6) I like the idea of a perfect self.. but I would prefer to see it with a different mechanic than the monks. Okay, the sorc's an innate magical creature... but let's think of some other bonus besides DR.


Overall though I like the balance of costs and benefits for each lineage, I like the progression, and I like the customability. I'm still a little worried that we're giving teh sorc too many new spells known, and too many good abilities... but I think we're moving in the right direction.

 

[Khaalis]

MASS REPLY 4
Doing this fast to squeeze in under the 6pm shutdown.

From Halma

Man I love this. I have been lurking for quite sometime on your work here. Having played a Sorcerer in 3.0 (See Wulf Ratbane's story hour), I was struck by how under-powered the core Sorcerer class was compared to all other character archetypes. As a group we decided that the Monte Cook variant was a much better choice for a Sorcerer but it still felt a little bland compared to say the Druid. It really did have some very good improvements over the core Sorcerer, but I wanted more. You have certainly put a lot of time and energy into this well thought out Alternate version. I would just like to say Thanks a bunch!! Allowing the rest of the community the opportunity to see your thought process, and provide thier own input, makes me appreciate this board once again. I can't speak for the rest of this community but please keep up the great work here!!!! I also can't wait for the finished project!

Thanks for all that. Helps to know I am doing something worthwhile to others than myself and that I am not the only one that feels the core sorcerer is underpowered. My original poll gave me the incentive to once again tackle this project with the hope that this time around people wouldn’t be sick to death of the Alt.Core threads that pervaded the boards a year or so ago. I have also been following this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77628&page=1&pp=25
Which has a Wide range of beliefs on the class, but I would say that it falls into the same rough 50/50 as my original poll. It’s a great read though to see people’s thought processes and strategies with the class, especially when comparing to the Wizard.

As for Constructive criticism---
See above quote
What happens when a Perfect-self Sorc. goes into a Anti magic field? Do they blink out?

The ability as defined by the Monk is an (Ex) Extraordinary ability. Per the SRD…
”Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.”

In other words, once your “Type” changes it cant be turned on and off.

Only two Lineage's right now? Where is this Chart you mention?

Only 2 “Examples” so far. I am working on the others and still need lineage abilities for most of them. Ideas??

For the General Lineage why only give the Metamagic feats for the Lineage spells? Why not allow them to be used with all of their spells? Thematic’s?

This is a good question. It was limited because those expressing opinion felt it too powerful to be used on all of their spells. I “personally” disagree, and would allow it on all of the sorcerer’s spells (and I may yet revise it that way). Logic? It is designed to be relatively equal in power to Turn Undead. However it falls short currently. It is limited in use to only the Lineage Spells. Granted Turn is limited to Undead, however with the choice of a single feat the Turn ability can be changed into a much more wide use ability (see the “Divine Feat” series of feats). Turn can also be used 3+CHA times per day, we trimmed the virtual feat to just CHA per day.

Thoughts?

I am not sure that all of these are constructive. Please let me know if you need my current group to play test this Sorcerer Variant.

Would love it.

I've been lurking around this thread for quite a bit. I must say,this is the best Alt.Sorcerer class I've seen yet. If you can find it, check out the old alt.sorcerer.domain for a rather comprehensive list of bloodlines/heredity spell lists, that would give some ideas for other heredities.
This is fantastic work, Khaalis.

Thanks for the input Essex. On the Part 1 of the thread Vrylakos posted it:
http://members.tripod.com/vrylakos/...main_system.htm
personally I am not too sure on many of them as viable such as how does a ghost sire a child? But that’s just me. This is a great source for people to use to show the other types of things they can come up with on their own. Remember, the basic idea is to make the system similar to Domains in function if not form, so they are easily copied and mimicked with any other choices people wish to create.

This sorcerer is starting to look really yummy to me.

That’s a great sign.

Especially with the 3.5 trend towards splitting spells with more than one use into multiple spells... it's a lot harder for the sorcerer to find spells with general utility. I would accept this IMC provided that the lineage spells are comparable to clerical domains--there may be one or two "money" spells in there, but the remainder are flavor/utility spells.

May be hard to balance as some “flavors” are bent toward certain functions. Not too many “utility” fire spells. The elements will lean toward offense as an Evoker would. While shifters will be more about guile and deceipt.

From a background of mythology and cultural anthropology, rather than any modern magical practice. (E.g. Frasier's 'laws' of sympathy and contagion.) The distinction between a focus and a material component is minor in my mind. At any rate I agree that D&D's handling of materials/foci is rather silly and would shed no tears to see all sorcerers with Eschew Materials.

Excellent. Seems to be the general stance on it.

What I do think would be interesting and flavorful is if all sorcerers had a 'personal focus' for their spells. This could be a childhood toy that they associated with their emerging magic, a staff that they carved themselves while learning to control their power, a drug that allows them to access the right mental state, or even a minor ritual that they must perform along with the spellcasting at the beginning of an encounter. As they gain levels, one of their class abilities can be learning to dispense with this focus.
Again borrowing a page from HERO, I would say that sorcerers can gain a minor benefit such as +1 caster level & DC to lineage spells if their focus is obvious and accessable (such as a staff), +1 to one or the other if their focus is inobvious and accessable (such as an old teddy bear or a drug), but no benefit at all if the focus is something that can't be taken away from the sorcerer.

Its an interesting idea and I have thought of this. I’m not sure I want to force them all into this mold for the core though. I MAY use this basic concept and combine it with the “Item Familiar” from Unearthed Arcana for one of the heredities. This actually falls more to the purview of the “advanced” rule set (2nd build). Unfortunately this starts pushing us back more toward a “mutable” selection of “possible” class ability choices. We’ll look at that once we have a core to work form.

Yeah, I agree. That's why I think of the innate lineage spells as a good way to add flavor but relatively little power... and I'd favor keeping the 0-level lineage spell/innate spell just for the pleasant symmetry.

I’m still toying with that. Not sure on it since they will all be basically acquiring detect magic at will.

I like the examples of lineage abilities that I've seen so far.

Balance wise?
Ideas for the other lineages?

OK by me. Another idea I had to balance sorcerous healing was to give them a double whammy: a healing spell in a sorcerer's domain had to be (a) at least one level higher than normal and (b) cost 2 spell slots to cast instead of one. But that extra mechanic makes things complicated. One could also borrow a page from AU and say that sorcerer's healing spells cause an equal amount of subdual damage to the sorcerer, since they're not channeling divine energy.

Some good ideas I will look at as I get to the 2 classes. Nature (Druid Spell list) already delays healing spells. As for the Divine Receptacle, I am leaning toward giving them the ability to learn any spell that their deity offers as a domain spell. This in itself will limit who has access to healing since not that many deities grant the healing domain.

Very cool! For lineage abilities, I suggest you steal Monte Cook's "The Sight" (that allows a witch to know the level/HD of a creature, and perhaps a brief vision suggesting their relative importance/destiny--something like Min's ability in the Wheel of Time). For the second one... maybe something to enhance their skill with Enchantment/compulsion magic? Hmm...

Yeah I love the Gypsy too.
I’ll keep thinking on the Gypsy power. I don’t want to cross into “Witch” territories. In my personal view, this incarnation is based on the Mid-European caravan gypsies. Basically Rogue/Bardish and Seers/Fortune Tellers. “Witch” has a whole different connotation. (To discuss later – maybe make that a lineage as well??)

I like this better than divine grace, although when combined
with the spell resistance that a general lineage sorcerer gets--wow!

Not really that wow. If you look at the level the SR is gained, its not that difficult to overcome. It basically helps the sorcerer “ignore” those wannabe punk casters (ie really low level casters) that decide to try their “special” on him.

Here's a thought--maybe this is an ability the sorcerer can activate as a free action (Cha bonus) times per day? I know, I know, I'm always the one saying "weaken this build!" It doesn't mean I don't like it! I'm just concerned about the sorcerer turning into the teflon mage--spells just roll off him.

That was kind of the idea…
However, again, compare the SR level to a Penetrate Roll at that level. Really not that hard to overcome by an equal foe.

I like this much better than the previous table. Things are looking a little sparse in the middle there--this would be a good place to stick an "Eschew personal focus" ability (see above suggestion).

Remember, I want to keep this close to 10 abilities for class ability balance and you already want to add in the 0-level Spell-Like again. Also keep in mind that though the abilities spread out at higher levels the Spellcasting ability of the sorcerer is coming into full power at these levels.

Alright, now we got something we can work with

Glad it helped!

Hey Khaalis, just a note: SLA don't work in antimagic fields

Yes I know this. That’s why I said it’s the ONLY way to “detain” a sorcerer from use of them.

1) Just a conciseness change... I would take the paragraphs under spells that talk about spell chains and the ability to swap spells at 4th, 6th and so as abilities to put on the class list. When you have a big paragraph like that its easy to miss those details, and they are benefits of the sorc that should be hilited.

True but I am following the form of the text from the core write-up. Spell swapping is nothing new. I have just amended the option to include one more thing. Its really not a full class ability, but merely an addition to the spell swap rule.

2) Do not underestimate arcane sense. For anyone who has played a paladin, detect evil and will is huge!! Detect magic is for much more than just checking items, you can detect all sorts of creatures, spell effects, etc. This ability lets teh sorc become a virtual magical trap finder himself!!! PCs: Okay we get to the door
Sorc: I detect magic on the door.
DM: Yeah, there's evocation magic on the doorknob.
Rogue: Probably a magic trap I'll take a look.

To a point. Finding lingering magic and spells in place is pretty tough (DC15+spell level) per aura. Also keep in mind detect magic is able to be made permanent.
However – this argument is exactly why I took away the 0-Level Spell-Like ability.

3) I would drop strength of magic. They are already getting lineage abilities, and arcane sense, and innate abilities. I think we have plenty of flavor there already.

What would you replace it with? Remember the focus of 10 class abilities, and the 0-level spell-like doesn’t cut it. It should be on par with other class abilities of that Class Level.

4) For the alignment based lineages (like celestial) I would put in a clause that says if they go evil they lose all lineage abilities and spells until they atone.

Good point. Will do that. I can clip that from the SRD easily enough.

5) I wouldn't give the sorc a new spell when one of their lineage becomes a SLA. Hey even if they can cast it 6 times a day freely, they may want it 7 or 8 times as normal spells... and we already have two other ways for sorcs to trade up on spells, 3rd I think is a bit much.

Problem here is backpedaling. We finally give the sorcerer a wee bit more flexibility just to turn around and take it away again. As for the 2 ways, only spell swap really counts for the most part. The spell-paths are very limited. Will think on this…

6) I like the idea of a perfect self.. but I would prefer to see it with a different mechanic than the monks. Okay, the sorc's an innate magical creature... but let's think of some other bonus besides DR.

Only problem I have with that is I want to keep to relatively known mechanics. The DR is a function of being an Outsider. Since that is what you are turning into – that’s what you get. Otherwise you have to determine and define a new “Type” that doesn’t exist in the MM.

Overall though I like the balance of costs and benefits for each lineage, I like the progression, and I like the customability. I'm still a little worried that we're giving teh sorc too many new spells known, and too many good abilities... but I think we're moving in the right direction.

We shall see when the final version pans out. Keep in mind – the power balance is never going to make everyone happy. There WERE 52% who think the sorcerer is perfect as-is…


Hope to hear more from all of you on Monday! Good Weekend All!

 

[Stalker0]

To a point. Finding lingering magic and spells in place is pretty tough (DC15+spell level) per aura. Also keep in mind detect magic is able to be made permanent.
However – this argument is exactly why I took away the 0-Level Spell-Like ability.

What would you replace it with? Remember the focus of 10 class abilities, and the 0-level spell-like doesn’t cut it. It should be on par with other class abilities of that Class Level.

Problem here is backpedaling. We finally give the sorcerer a wee bit more flexibility just to turn around and take it away again. As for the 2 ways, only spell swap really counts for the most part. The spell-paths are very limited. Will think on this…

Only problem I have with that is I want to keep to relatively known mechanics. The DR is a function of being an Outsider. Since that is what you are turning into – that’s what you get. Otherwise you have to determine and define a new “Type” that doesn’t exist in the MM.

We shall see when the final version pans out. Keep in mind – the power balance is never going to make everyone happy. There WERE 52% who think the sorcerer is perfect as-is…

Hope to hear more from all of you on Monday! Good Weekend All!

Getting spell school detection through detect magic is preety easy in most campaigns. A lot of sorcs get spellcraft, and with the increase the skill points it would occur even more often. Also, the main difference between this and permancy is you get it a lot sooner, it has no cost, and permancy can be dispelled.

Why does it need to be 10 class abilities? From my count clerics only get turning, spontaneous heal, and two domains, no where near 10. Wizards get 5 bonus feats and a familiar, but again no where near ten. Sorcs right now get eschew materials, spontaneous magic, a couple of lineage abilities, SLA's, and perfect self. Why go for any more?

Your not backpedaling by not swapping out the lineage spell when it becomes a SLA. You gave the sorc that spell to enhance flexibilty, and now he can even use it as SLA on occasion. That's flexible already. Switching it out for another spell is even more flexible granted, but I believe it may be unneccesary.

As for the perfect self, why make him an outsider? He doesn't have to change type necesarily, he just gets some kind of change for being that imbued with magic.

As far as the power balance goes... if I'm correct the project is designed to enhance the customability and flexibility or the sorc and make him fit the roles he was designed for... not necessarily to make him stronger. The lineages have already gone a long way to doing that... if we make a powerful class with flavor... we made a good class. If we can make one with a lot of flavor and about the same power as the original we made a great class.