D&D 5E Sorcerers and Versatility

[Jester David]

What happens here is that the orog proceeds to cut your sorcerer to ribbons with its axe. Because it can drop prone every round and STILL keep itself up in your sorcerer's grill on account of your sorcerer idiotically having chosen multiple redundant attack spells instead of defense or battlefield control...which need to strike through the orog's plate at disadvantage. And maybe the sorcerer still lives, but afterward he's taken heavy damage and exhausted all his high-level slots and sorcerery points (to keep range or otherwise get around the disadvantage thing). Meanwhile the wizard laughs and runs circles around said orog with Haste...plinking away with long-range attacks while the orog tries to return fire with his five javelins at disadvantage due to range.

The orog, of course, uses it's bonus action ability to move 30 feet closer to the caster and then its regular movement to catch up. Then it makes two greataxe attacks, likely breaking concentration on haste and causing the wizard to lose a turn as a result of the spell ending.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I have no horse in this race, but a minor nitpick:

The orog, of course, uses it's bonus action ability to move 30 feet closer to the caster and then its regular movement to catch up. Then it makes two greataxe attacks, likely breaking concentration on haste and causing the wizard to lose a turn as a result of the spell ending.

This doesn't actually work. The orog moves 90 feet per round including its bonus action; the Hasted wizard moves 120 feet per round when using his extra Dash from Haste.

 

[aramis erak]

In a certain other recent thread it seems like I've been seeing hordes of armchair theoreticians who have been making assorted claims about the sorcerer despite obviously having comparatively little play experience. Now - I like the class, and I'm not personally certain that the errata is all that damaging or at least the errata is in keeping with my personal previous reading of the Twinned spell metamagic ability; but the fact of the matter is that the sorcerer does indeed have issues with versatility. And complaints about it are absolutely on target. Just to maybe clarify a few things:

* The sorcerer has fewer spells known than any other primary caster (other than the warlock...who IMO doesn't really count because of their weird casting mechanic...their at-will invocation abilities...and because the warlock can deal middling martial-level damage with a cantrip).

* The sorcerer knows fewer spells than any other primary caster class that prepares spells can even prepare at one time.

* Unlike casters that prepare spells, the sorcerer is stuck with the same basic known spells day after day until they gain a new level...and so cannot even adapt that very limited list to a particular challenge or situation.

* The sorcerer is the ONLY primary caster who does not have the Ritual Caster ability. (Although again this requires an invocation and a pact choice for the warlock).

* The sorcerer's metamagic abilities compete with the same resource (i.e. sorcery points) as spell slots. So in combination with the lack of Ritual Casting...the class often effectively has fewer spell slots. (But can nova a little better).

On top of the above limitations, the sorcerer's closest homologue - the wizard - holds a greatly expanded spell list. These limitations become distinctly obvious as class levels rise. THEORETICALLY, the sorcerer's metamagic abilities make up for this. But their metamagic picks are quite limited....so when one of them turns out to be ineffective or circumstantial...it hurts significantly.

Sorcerers do just as much cantrip damage if they pick the right ones. Fire Bolt is pretty damned good - d10's, climbs with level.

 

[Ashrym]

As a public service, here is the complete list of sorcerer spells from the PHB which are NOT also on the wizard list:

Daylight
Dominate Beast
Earthquake
Enhance Ability
Fire Storm
Insect Plague
Water Walk

Of these, Enhance Ability is the best for versatility. It's somewhat like proficiency in every skill.

Trivia: did you know the Ranger's is the only spell list which does not contain Dispel Magic?

Most of them aren't really worth considering but I like enhance ability and earthquake.

Edit: warding wind from EE should also be on this list.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Of these, Enhance Ability is the best for versatility. It's somewhat like proficiency in every skill.

As well as temporary hit points on demand, a +5 to passive perception (advantage on wisdom checks...which includes perception), and/or advantage on initiative checks. Enhance Ability is indeed an awesome spell. And twinnable.

 

[Ashrym]

I have no horse in this race, but a minor nitpick:



This doesn't actually work. The orog moves 90 feet per round including its bonus action; the Hasted wizard moves 120 feet per round when using his extra Dash from Haste.

True, but the sample sorcerer hadn't traded off a lower level spell known for higher level spell. I would have had levitate instead of chromatic orb by choice, and charm person would have been upgraded to haste.

It's important to have a twinnable buff and haste is typically it. I thought it was a bit humorous that the spells selected for the wizard alternative would be spells I already would have had if it had been my sorcerer. A non-fire cantrip is good enough to cover what chromatic orb would.

 

[Delandel]

When Sir Bearington and Goldie Dreadlocks meet Hugreg the half-red-dragon orog, who kills him faster? He's resistant to fire
Ooops Both Sir Bearington and Goldie Dreadlocks both lack non-fiire spells except chromatic orb?
Who deals more damage with a single spell? Sorcerers.

Bearington's: 5d8 acid damage
Goldilock's: 5d8 acid damage reroll the 1s, 2s, and 3s. (quickened 2d8 cold damage)

Or Bearington says, ah, fire resistant creature. Let me cast Haste on my fighter buddy and he'll just deal with it. Or if the target is pure melee, Bearington can Levitate it up into the air harmlessly while the party plays with the pinata.

It's not a detriment. It's just not a pure positive.

It IS a pure positive. The DEGREE of how powerful it is, that's what you can debate all you want.

The cantrip could be much more useful than light, like minor illusion.

You're missing the whole point: I copied the list spell for spell to illustrate that knowing vastly more spells and preparing more spells is not a detriment, and that portraying it as such is dishonest.

Now you're just nitpicking the list.

Mage armor doesn't matter if it's already built in to the sorcerer without needing to spend a spell slot. So 1 more 1st-level spell becomes available as well as the wizard carrying a superfluous spell prepared compared to the wizard.

The wizard has the always-on Find Familiar. "But Sorcerers can get it with a feat!" "But Wizards can get armor proficiency with a feat too."

The sorcerer's hit point maximum is 6 points higher than the wizard and the sorcerer and the sorcerer does already has a built in proficiency to avoid concentration loss.

The wizard gets a ward at the beginning of the day that absorbs 16 damage and can further absorb more damage by casting abjuration spells. This is worth way more than 6 hit points. And the abjuration wizard can also project this shield on allies.

The wizard cannot have enhance ability because it doesn't exist on the wizard spell list. I thought you might have realized not all sorcerer spells are on the wizard list in your vast experience but you'll find that's not the only example. It's not a big list but those non-wizard spells exist. ;-)

Again, purely illustrative purpose, no need to nitpick. If I was making the Wizard I'd pick much better spells, like Flame Sphere (wizard only) instead of Scorching Ray, which is not only a superior choice but combos very well with Pyrotechnics as needed, another spell I'd take.

Also, please, please don't even try spinning the sorc-only spells as some sort of perk in favor of sorcs. Wizards get far more exclusive spells, and better ones. You know that.

The rituals can be replaced by a single feat if the player finds them important. The importance is highly disputable because they aren't high impact abilities. It's not like alarm isn't replaced by posting a watch or leomunds hut by finding a safe rest area.

You're underestimating rituals. They can do much more than your generic applications. Alarm can alert you a mile away. Leomund's Hut lets you set up an impenetrable defense that you can shoot arrows out of but cannot be attacked into. You have to be more creative with these things to see their value.

No, I'm saying that the assumption is that the wizard is not showered by spells, that they will not find new spells after every adventure. That new spells are very possibly a rare thing for wizards.

And we're saying that however low the chances of wizards finding new spells, the sorcerer has a far, far lower chance of learning new spells. That's supported by the PHB, by the modules.

Perfect balance is impossible.

Given it's human nature to see the grass being greener on the other side of the fence, it's easy to imagine the class you're not playing being better than the one you had a bad session with.

Duh. And the point of this thread, the point of the survey results, the sentiments in multiple online communities, is that some of the balance issues are significant enough that they're causing complaints.

If it was a case of "grass being greener," as you claim it is, then we would expect a relatively equal amount of complaining about all the classes, instead of an abnormally high concentration of complaints about the beastmaster ranger, elemental monk, and sorcerer. You would expect an equal amount of Wizards complaining about be subpar to Sorcerers and vice versa. But you don't.

Yet you dismiss it as "grass being greener" and continually downplay the benefits of Wizards, despite contrary evidence. I'd love to hear all your arguments on why the beastmaster ranger is a balanced subclass and is absolutely fine. Same with elemental monk.

As I pointed out already, I think it's pretty plain to see that WotC agrees that they got the balance wrong on sorcerers in some regards. I don't think it's a coincidence that both the Favored Soul and Stormborn get bonus spells.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Sorcerers do just as much cantrip damage if they pick the right ones. Fire Bolt is pretty damned good - d10's, climbs with level.

As Warlocks do, you mean? No, no they don't. The agonizing blast invocation applies bonus damage to EACH hit, as per both text and dev response. Eldritch Blast invokes multiple attacks. This is on top of Hex and the like. Elemental Affinity applies ONCE per spell.

Eldritch blast, Warlock: 1d10+3/4 => 2d10 + 8/10 => 3d10 + 15 => 4d10 + 20
Firebolt, draconic Sorcerer: 1d10 => 2d10+4/5 => 3d10 + 5 => 4d10 + 5

 

[Jester David]

Duh. And the point of this thread, the point of the survey results, the sentiments in multiple online communities, is that some of the balance issues are significant enough that they're causing complaints.

There'll ALWAYS been complaints though.
And the survey results apparently said people were happy with the sorcerer apart from wanting a few more subclasses.

If it was a case of "grass being greener," as you claim it is, then we would expect a relatively equal amount of complaining about all the classes, instead of an abnormally high concentration of complaints about the beastmaster ranger, elemental monk, and sorcerer. You would expect an equal amount of Wizards complaining about be subpar to Sorcerers and vice versa. But you don't.

People are also complaining about the fighter and the druid and the barbarian. So roughly half the classes. Because we like to complain.

Yet you dismiss it as "grass being greener" and continually downplay the benefits of Wizards, despite contrary evidence. I'd love to hear all your arguments on why the beastmaster ranger is a balanced subclass and is absolutely fine. Same with elemental monk.

Is the sorcerer perfectly balanced? No. But as I stated earlier, it's NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE to make it perfectly balanced. And especially not against a class with such a wide range of power as the wizard whose effectiveness varies greatly on a player-by-player and even session-by-session basis.
(Plus, you also need to compare the class as a whole, including subclass options. And the benefits of subclass from the sorcerer's bloodline are pretty potent compared to some of the wizard options.)

The variance in power between a weak 5e class and a strong one is negligible compared to earlier editions. Things are much closer and balance.
Regardless, the sorcerer is still a strong class, especially compared to many of the other classes. It has the potential to be a little weak compared to the wizard, but when compared to many of the other classes it's much better. Buffing the sorcerer seems needless and risks making it overpowered.

As I pointed out already, I think it's pretty plain to see that WotC agrees that they got the balance wrong on sorcerers in some regards. I don't think it's a coincidence that both the Favored Soul and Stormborn get bonus spells.

Maybe. Maybe not. We haven't seen enough to really judge.
The favoured soul gets more spells because there's almost no cleric type spells on the sorcerer lists, so making a favour soul without those options would be challenging. And the stormborn gets a lot of pretty so-so flavour spells that a weather based sorcerer would be expected to have but that someone building a sorcerer is unlikely to take. I don't think fog cloud or gust of wind are going to save the day particularly often.


At the end of the day, when the rare and very specific situations where the wizard convenient has the right spell due to being able to prep 20% extra spells or something then, yes, the wizard would outshine the sorcerer. But so many other variables can just as much impact, if not more. The luck of the players. Some teamwork. Terrain. Whether or not the player is well caffeinated and thinks of the right tactic. Something that can affect a couple round in a combat every other level is barely worth considering when balancing the class.

 

[DaveDash]

The argument that the Wizards spell picking mechanism is a disadvantage over the Sorcerers is a logical fallacy and shouldn't be entertained any further.

If you normalize all factors like player skill out of it, they are at THE VERY WORST equal. There's nothing stopping the Wizard player picking example the same spell the Sorcerer player swaps out on a level gain, and then he also gets another pick.

The situations where a Wizards spells become more useful that a Sorcs spells are by far greater than "very rare". I can think of at least a dozen situations in 30 sessions where the Wizards ritual casting alone was critical to the groups success in my campaign, and if you throw in detect magic as well that balloons one time every session.

Not to mention the Wizards ability like to throw his ward over his ally that just got crit and would certainly die, or to pull out the right spell for the right situation - which over the course of a campaign results in a lot of instances.