Sorcerers and Wasted Spell Slots

[Uller]

Oh I know Uller. You seem to be a very reasonable DM and I know that any house rule you use would work well in your group (I actually tend to agree with just about everything you post). Just pointing out possible issues to "the rookies" - not that there seem to be any of those on here

IceBear

Yeah...I think you and I are on the same page rules wise most of the time. Definately a DM should not let players just change stuff around higgeldy-piggledy without very good reason.

 

[Uller]

I am curious about which spells become "useless" at high levels, can you please give a few examples? We are still stuck at low levels ...

Do you mean spells which have a cap, like a HD limit on affected creatures, which are rarely useful when your foes are now all big and ugly? BTW, there is a nice meatamagic feat somewhere which moves the cap up, but if I remember right it's very expensive in terms of spell slot.

Generally level cap comes into play, easy saves make offensive spells useless, higher level spells that achieve the same effect better or magic items mimic the spell's effect.

A few examples:
Sleep - it can be useful as a "stealth" spell in a campaign where sneaking past low level guards is often useful. Not much use in a hack 'n slay campaign beyond 8th level or so.

Mage Armor - at high level, bracers of armor render this spell unnecessary

Invisibility - Once you have improved Invis, you rarely need invis.

So...I would not give a NPC sorcerer +3 Bracers of Armor and a mage armor spell. So if one of my players picks up bracers of armor and ends up no longer ever casting mage armor, I'd eventually let him switch that spell for another at some point (probably not right away).

 

[Arnix]

I actually play a Psychic Warrior, but Psions, PsyWars, and Sorcerers are all in the same boat pretty much for spell selection (Psionic spells are "Powers" and casting is "Manifesting" for those who might not know). I took Lesser Metaphysical Weapon (Lesser Magic Weapon) and now that I can take Metaphysical weapon (greater Magic Weapon) the 1st level version is pretty wasted. Also what I "expected" to fight and what we frequently fight are quite different.

I based many of my earlier decisions on things that the particular DM had done in most (maybe all) of his previous campaigns. this one turned out almost completely different. However, my earlier powers are now pretty useless.

I have used these powers at least once, but now they get used just because. I have a kobold following me around becasue I saved his life (and he provides good comic relief), so to keep him from bothering me too much I Lesser Metaphysical Weapon his crossbow. Not that he can hit much that we fight (APL 10.x, maybe 11 now).



Arnix (tm)

 

[Knightcrawler]

Sorcerer's and changing slpells

My house rule is that I let sorcerer's change their spells each time that they gain a level. This helps to clear out spells that they no long use.

In the beginning of the campaign (1st - 4th) my sorcerer had alot of "buffing" spells; cat's grace, bull's strength, eagles splendor, expedious retreat, etc. Now later on (9th) he's had the time to make magic items for the party thus most of these spells are no longer useful.

And I thought I ran across a feat somewhere that allowed sorcerer's to change the spells that they knew. It was very limited though. Like you could only swap out one spell each time you took that feat, but I'm not positive.

Knightcrawler

 

[Uller]

Well then approach your DM. Tell him that you're a bit unhappy with your character and that you'd like to make some small changes. Point out this thread to show what other DMs do, but be ready to accept when he denies your request (some DMs are bothered by such inconsistancies as changing character abilities...)

Have ready a list of changes you'd like to make and if they seem significant, offer to make them slowly over time. Realize though that most people will see it as a "house rule" or rule-0...If your DM sees it that way and doesn't want to open the house rule flood gate, you may just be SOL...in which case, if your character is unfun because of this, you might want to consider retiring him gracefully and starting fresh.

 

[KarinsDad]

Say goodbye to that horde of kobolds...

Hmmmm.

Sleep spell can still be a somewhat potent spell, even at higher level when Empowered.

Granted, you will not affect many opponents, but HHEE Sleep is a 3rd level equivalent which on average affects a single 9th level opponent. A high Charisma Sorcerer could easily take out a low Will save combatant type with this. Granted, a Hold Person can often do the same thing even better, but a Sorcerer might not have both spells and Sleep affects monsters whereas Hold Person does not.

EEE Sleep on average affects a single 11th level opponent, but could affect as high as a 20th level opponent.

A Maximized Empowered Sleep can be used to ensure that you get a reasonable number of hit dice, even if you roll bad (9 19%, 10 44%, 11 31% 12 6%). Considering that a 12th level Sorcerer can cast this, it is not unreasonable for him to encounter 9th to 11th level opponents.

If your Sorcerer casts some version of Sleep, an opponent fails the save, and your Fighter is Hasted, the Fighter can often move in and CDG the opponent in the same round.

I think people tend to underestimate the power of the Sleep spell due to it's level cap. But, it is still a potent spell, especially in town situations where you may not want to actually kill opponents and especially when Empowered.

 

[KarinsDad]

On the topic of Sorcerers changing spells, I would not allow it in my game. It makes a powerful class even more powerful and I think it unbalances the game a little.

Course, this is just like my not allowing any other classes to change skills around or change their feats.

I have no problem with using a Wish spell to do that, though, since Wish would result in the Sorcerer paying for it. Ditto for another class that wanted to swap out a feat with Wish.

 

[Pielorinho]

EEE Sleep on average affects a single 11th level opponent, but could affect as high as a 20th level opponent.

KD, am I missing something?

from the srd description of sleep:

No creature with 5 or more HD is affected, and HD that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted.

How does empowering sleep get around this limit? Does heightening sleep get around it somehow?

Rockin' if it does, but I don't see how that'd work.
Daniel

 

[KarinsDad]

How does empowering sleep get around this limit? Does heightening sleep get around it somehow?

Rockin' if it does, but I don't see how that'd work.

Damn. Forgot about the stupid limit.

WotC and their stupid hard and fast limits (Sleep spell, Mirror Image spell).

Arrrrggghhh.

Well, it only helps a little in town then.

The limit should be however much you roll on the hit dice. Mental Note: New house rule.

 

[Lord Ben]

I usually let sleep affect a minimum of 1 person. So sleep still works at higher levels.