D&D 5E (2024) Sorcerers getting Chaos Bolt automatically

[GMforPowergamers]

Ditch warlock and roll some of its stuff into sorcerer.
Wild magic as an idea is cool but it's wierd to run and then a Fireball arises and the whole party die.

I would rather you ditch sorcerer... warlock is the better class

 

[SkidAce]

Wild Magic unlike Dragonblooded, Divine Soul, Shadow Magic, Storm Magic, Psionic Soul, and Clockwork Soul felt less connected to ancestory type thing, and more a type of magic with a long history in D&D. So I think they are trying to play it up as Sorcerer magic is innately, but some how connected to that, unstable inheriantly, but its origin is still ancestory based, its just now the nature of sorcerers that they are unstable no matter what their ancestory.

Logical, makes sense, not sure I like it.

Been using sorcerer and custom spell lists as the chassis for pyromancers, oracles, storm mages, etc for a while now.

Will have to see.

 

[SkidAce]

Here is the relevent bit.


"We also wanted to build more of a core identity for the sorcerer and the warlock. The warlock and sorcerer does not have core identity at first level. Cleric doesn't have that problem because they do have channel divinity at first level. So what you'll see is that we're delving into innate magic for the sorcerer. So we've taken the concept of some chaos magic in side of you that you don't always have control over. You'll get Chaos Bolt for free"

Boo.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

My fighter rewrite gives them legendary actions in place of second wind and action surge, i ponder…why not give sorcerers something like an effect on the environment around them, that they can use like lair actions?

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Boo.

Card to build on the boo to explain what your objection is?

 

[Henadic Theologian]

I quite like the idea that all sorcerers start out with “wild magic” but learn to control it better over time as they come into their bloodline.

That's an interesting perpective.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I haven’t played DCC and don’t know what their random magical effects are like, but I have always felt that wild magic surges should be more like wild metamagic, altering the effect of your intended spell in some unpredictable way, rather than a completely random and unrelated effect. Make the AoE bigger, smaller, or a different shape, the duration longer or shorter, the damage greater or lesser, that kind of thing, instead of bizarre nonsense like summoning flumphs or growing facial hair made of feathers.

That's very similar to what happens in DCC, where each spell has what amounts to its own wild magic surge table. For the most part, the results on that table just tweak the numbers in various ways, including up to the epic scale if the player rolls amazingly. Even when things go wrong, it still feels like the caster was trying to cast spell X, rather than getting a completely different result, like they were a human Wand of Wonder.

 

[Zaukrie]

I quite like the idea that all sorcerers start out with “wild magic” but learn to control it better over time as they come into their bloodline.

Agreed. But I get that others don't want that.

 

[tetrasodium]

I haven’t played DCC and don’t know what their random magical effects are like, but I have always felt that wild magic surges should be more like wild metamagic, altering the effect of your intended spell in some unpredictable way, rather than a completely random and unrelated effect. Make the AoE bigger, smaller, or a different shape, the duration longer or shorter, the damage greater or lesser, that kind of thing, instead of bizarre nonsense like summoning flumphs or growing facial hair made of feathers.

There are system differences that will make describing it sound more complicated than it is. I did some digging to save time & found this great summary on reddit

Spoiler: said summary

Similarity 1: Intelligence still modifies the number of spells you can learn (3e gives bonus spells learned for free, DCC's increases the maximum number of spells you can have at once in your grimoire, which doubles as the number of spells you presently are able to cast), and the highest level spells you can know/cast.

Similarity 2: Spells can be lost after being cast in both systems. In DCC it's not guaranteed, while in 3rd ed/PF it is.

Similarity 3: Many spells are superficially similar, like flaming hands, or sleep.

Difference 1: In DCC you will often find yourself rolling an Int check to see if you can learn a given spell you've been exposed to this level. Sometimes you won't be able to learn it and will have to wait a level until you can try to learn it again.

Difference 2: In DCC by default you never get to "pick" your spells to learn - you can only learn them through exposure in the game fiction, and certainly not by paying somebody in coins (though rare treasures like wizard's staves, wands, weapons with plusses, and the like may suffice; a demon's quid pro quo may be something that makes you question if a spell is worth having at all!) like the 3.5 PHB suggests may be possible.

Difference 3: Hot Hand Vancian is probably the best descriptor of DCC's magic system. You can lose spells for the day, which must be re-memorized, but only if you fail a spell check (d20+int mod+CL). The greater your spell check the greater your spell's result, which you find by referencing a given spell's list of potential results based on your check result. As long as you keep making your spell checks you can keep casting a spell. Spell checks can crit and fumble just like weapon rolls, though what happens on a crit and fumble is slightly different.

Difference 4: Peculiar effects abound. Each spell a wizard learns has a Mercurial Magic effect that occurs each time he casts it - these can be positive to quite bad, but they are relatively unique. When combined with a randomly determined or selected appearance for a spell when cast (each spell gives usually at least 3 or 4 options for spell appearance) and the varying levels of result from spell check, even the same spell is unlikely to look identical when cast by two different wizards.

Difference 5: Critical failures on spell checks cause misfires or corruption of the wizard's physical or mental form. A wizard with a crab claw for an arm is probably going to show up if you play for long enough, among other things.

Difference 6: Spellburn. You can temporarily burn points of an ability score to gain a bonus to your spell-checks. For particularly powerful or evil magic this may be required by the spell itself in some amount; for instance making a staff with the Wizard's Staff spell requires 10 points of spellburn minimum.

Divine magic is like arcane magic, just with the following differences -

Spells can be continuously cast until you roll a natural failure, which begins at nat 1 and whose range increases each time your spells fail to take effect (like the wizard you need a reasonably high spell check for your spells to work). Rolling in this natural failure range results in your deity being displeased with you (in a reverse of cause and effect - your deity was displeased with you all along, which explains all the failed spells, but you only realize it when rolling inside this natural crit failure range), and a subsequent roll on a Deity Disapproval chart to see what strange task you're given to prove your continued value as a cleric worthy to receive divine aid. An hour of prayer is on the low-end, while the high end includes tasks like an inability to turn unholy creatures for a period of some days, or other such issues. This disapproval range usually resets overnight (as opposed to resetting your spells for the new day like in 3e D&D), but sometimes it doesn't for particularly egregious transgressions. Rolling a natural failure doesn't cause you to lose your spells (necessarily), so unless the deity disapproval result says otherwise you can just keep casting any spell you know whenever you like - and probably dig yourself into an ever-deepening hole of deific obligations, but hey, life as a cleric.

Clerics also have access by default to Turn Unholy (their alignment determine what unholy creatures may be turned - for instance in addition to undead a lawful cleric may turn demons, devils, mythical monsters, chaotic dragons, etc.) and Lay on Hands, both of which function in the exact same method as their other spells - failure increases disapproval range, but you can continue casting them until the cows come home.

Clerics really can't use spellburn, generally speaking.

That should just about cover it, I think.

Spellburn,, & spellburm mercurial magic are really critical to the whole thing though. There's a very good video on those that includes a bunch of examples & some relevant rulebook quoting

Spoiler: here

Video jumps to timestamp for relevant section. A cleric can reverse some of that after the fact, but their god doesn't need to approve of them doing so & the rulebook is pretty clear that the GM should feel free to channel their deity's displeasure at said cleric so it becomes a risky thing.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't mind the losing control part. But even that losing control should be on a subclass or easily flavoured theme. Not turning pink or into a potted plant.

A fire themed sorcerer should be at risk of burning themselves and others around them. Not accidently blowing lavender scented bubbles out of their ears.

Here’s an example of what I’d like to see for a “wild Metamagic surge” table. Roll 1d6 to determine what aspect of the spell is affected, and then roll 1d6 to see how it’s changed.

	Amplify (1-2)	Dampen (3-4)	Distort (5-6)
Scale (1-2)	Double the size of the area or number of targets the spell can affect.	Halve the size of the area or number of targets the spell can affect (minimum 1 target).	Change the shape of the affected area or choose new target(s) at random.
Duration (1-2)	Double the duration of the spell or repeat its effect on the caster’s next turn if the duration was instantaneous.	Halve the duration of the spell, or if the duration was instantaneous, the caster must ready to cast the spell just before the start of their next turn or lose it.	Amplify on 5, dampen on 6.
Magnitude (1-2)	Roll the damage twice and take the higher result or increase the save DC by 5.	Roll the damage twice and take the lower result or decrease the save DC by 5.	Change the damage to a random type or the save to a random ability.