sorcerers

[Denaes]

It's not a disadvantage to wizardds at all. It's just the way wizards cast spells. An advantage of the Sorcerer is that they don't have to worry about that. Sorcerers are by far more flexible casters.

emphasis mine

On what basis do you make this assertion? Sorcerers are more fecund casters, certainly. But more flexible? They have access to the same spells wizards do, but fewer. How does that make them more flexible?

What makes them more flexible at spell casting is the definition of the word flexible (Responsive to change; adaptable) and the rules for how a Sorcerer cast spells. A Sorcerers mechanics for casting spells is more responsive to change & adaptable than the Wizards.

I followed it with this statement:

Thats not to be confused with spell selection. Wizards have the potential (it's not a right and not guaranteed) to have a more flexible selection of spells.

Again I want to reinforce that the mechanic for casting of spells has absolutely no bearing on the selection of spells and visa versa. They are two topics and together they make up the majority (but not all) of the mechanics that go into Arcane Magic in D&D.

 

[Thanee]

Sorcerer - tactical flexibility - can cast any spell they know in any situation, basically.

Wizard - strategical versatility - can prepare for any situation, but are stuck with what they have prepared in a given situation. A spell, that is used up, is used up and not available if needed again later. With any given prepared spell selection, the wizard is less flexible, since the spells are fixed in number, but they enjoy the advantage of having countless such spell selections available to them, but only one at a time.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I keep seeing this argument in these Wizard/Sorcerer threads: that the wizard's need to choose his spells is some kind of disadvantage compared to the sorcerer who doesn't need to choose his spells.

If he can "work within his spell list, being creative and squeezing every advantage out of his spells," then so can a wizard whose spellbook includes the sorcerer's list.

If the wizard 'mimicks' the sorcerer's spell list, for example, he still has a fixed number of each spell (usually a rather low number), and if the spell is used up, then it is not available anymore. The sorcerer still has the full selection after three encounters in a day, the wizard only a fraction of it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Denaes]

Sorcerer - tactical flexibility - can cast any spell they know in any situation, basically.

Wizard - strategical versatility - can prepare for any situation, but are stuck with what they have prepared in a given situation. A spell, that is used up, is used up and not available if needed again later. With any given prepared spell selection, the wizard is less flexible, since the spells are fixed in number, but they enjoy the advantage of having countless such spell selections available to them, but only one at a time.

Bye
Thanee

Just wanted to agree mostly and stress one major point:

The Wizard potentially has a wider variety of spells.

The Wizard potentially has the right spells for the right job.

A lot of people (not picking on you Thanee) are taking it as a given that just because the Wizard can attempt to scribe and learn any spell they come across (ie, any Arcane in the books being used) that they will have even half of them.

Yes, it's definatly a possibility and just having that potential is an advantage over the Sorcerer. But that doesn't mean that the Wizard automatically has full spell lists and/or every spell they could ever want/need. It means that they could mechanically learn them all if they chose to run them all down.

 

[Nytewolf]

Reading this thread has been amusing and enlightening. I myself have played both types of casters and find both equally enjoyable in many ways. Now with that said perhaps its time to shed some of my thoughts on this.


1. It was stated that it would be unfair to target the Wizards spell book for fear of making him useless with out it. Question does any one know what Divine Focus means in regards to Clerical spells? (Yes boys and Girls, it means lose your Holy symbol and you cant cast those spells. Not even the ones in memory. Which is not true of Wizards)

2. It was pointed out that perhaps the Wizard might have Fireball as well as Lightning Bolt in his spell list at 6th level, where the Sorcerer might only have Lightning Bolt. Well As I see it here. If the Wizard has Fireball he most likely at 6th level has no more than one in memory. (Sucks to be him if the trolls dont die from his mighty 6D6 Fireball)

3. At lower levels how many times has the Wizard held off casting one of his precious few spells to save them for when they are really needed? Conversly the Sorcerer takes the shot because he knows he has more.

4. Now reading this you might think I favor Sorcerers, this is not true I enjoy both classes for different reasons. But I would agree that perhaps the Sorcerer could stand to perhaps have a little bit better in the benefits department. (Such as perhaps a slightly larger Charisma based skill option. I personally think that Sorcerer's should get Use Magic Device as a Class Skill)


Please understand that these are my opinions, and not neccesarily shared by others.

 

[Thanee]

1. It was stated that it would be unfair to target the Wizards spell book for fear of making him useless with out it. Question does any one know what Divine Focus means in regards to Clerical spells? (Yes boys and Girls, it means lose your Holy symbol and you cant cast those spells. Not even the ones in memory. Which is not true of Wizards)

Heh. With my arcane trickster I always found it fun to ranged-legerdemain-pick-pocket the (un)holy symbol or spell component pouch.

I personally think that Sorcerer's should get Use Magic Device as a Class Skill

me too, and I have given it to them, plus Diplomacy and Intimidate, as well as Knowledge (the planes), along with 4 skill points per level. That and Eschew Materials at 1st level.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Merlion]

I keep seeing this argument in these Wizard/Sorcerer threads: that the wizard's need to choose his spells is some kind of disadvantage compared to the sorcerer who doesn't need to choose his spells. I really can't understand this logic. Certainly, it is a problem if you choose the wrong spells that day. But it is even more of a problem if you lack the ability to choose your spells for that day at all. A forewarned wizard can alter his spell selection. A forewarned sorcerer cannot. Neither a surprised wizard nor a surprised sorcerer can alter their spell selections. Advantage: wizard.

Not being able to choose your spells each day is not an advantage. Don't get me wrong: I like sorcerers, but this argument is quite common here and on the WotC boards, and it just doesn't make sense. The sorcerer loses out with regard to flexibility. He simply cannot adapt his spell selection to suit a problem. If he can "work within his spell list, being creative and squeezing every advantage out of his spells," then so can a wizard whose spellbook includes the sorcerer's list. Creativity and resourcefulness are not the exclusive province of sorcerers.

Sorcerers have other advantages, but flexibility is not their forte.

I know I said I wasnt going to post anymore, but I had to quote this for truth and emphasis. This is what I've been getting at, but said better.

 

[KarinsDad]

I know I said I wasnt going to post anymore, but I had to quote this for truth and emphasis. This is what I've been getting at, but said better.

Except that what he said was not accurate.

Wizards are NOT flexible.

Sorcerers are flexible.

Wizards are versatile.

There is a major difference.


The tactic of putting up a Silence spell up around a Sorcerer who has the Silent Spell feat does not work well because it does not stop him from casting.

The tactic of putting up a Silence spell up around a Wizard who has the Silent Spell feat does work well because it can often stop him from casting.


Dr. Awkward has it backwards. Sorcerers are flexible, Wizards are not. Wizards are versatile, Sorcerers are not.

 

[Felix]

quote this for truth

Let's take a look at the Truth, shall we?

Certainly, it is a problem if you choose the wrong spells that day.

A disadvantage the sorcerer does not share.

But it is even more of a problem if you lack the ability to choose your spells for that day at all.

You don't have the ability to change which spells you can draw from, but you have the ultimate ability in choosing how to choose which spells you use for your spells per day. Yes, there is disadvantage here, but advantage as well.

A forewarned wizard can alter his spell selection. A forewarned sorcerer cannot.

Right. This takes care of the foreknowledge case. One which I have never disagreed with, and have myself stated many times. Shoot, Merlion could be quoting me for truth and emphasis.

Neither a surprised wizard nor a surprised sorcerer can alter their spell selections.

This is both true and misleading.

The wizard can neither change his spell selection, nor can he change which spells he uses in his spells per day available.

The sorcerer can not change his spell selection, but he can decide to use one particular spell multiple times, or not. He can decide to Metamagic one particular spell, or not.

He cannot change the pool of spells from which he draws, but he can change how he uses that pool. The wizard cannot.

And that is the advantage that the sorcerer enjoys over the wizard in the unprepared case.

Advantage: wizard.

Only when he is prepared.

Not when he is unprepared.

That's the argument Dr. Awkward. Does it make more sense to you now?

---

I leave further argumentation to KarinsDad, because he is unrelenting, and to Thanee because she puts things as succinctly as I would like to. And I like German girls.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'd also like to point out that if the DM allows the Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class out of Complete Arcane, this would allow a Sorcerer's versatility to increase quite a bit.

Granted, it is only 1/2 level of spell levels per day, but that still allows a Sorcerer to acquire one or more spells that are not normally within his selection.


And, the Arcane Preparation feat does allow a Sorcerer to cast a Quickened spell.