Spellcaster Prestige Classes: Balanced?

[LokiDR]

So, a suitable PrC for casters woudl have no +1 spellcaster level, but maybe +1 DC on existing spell levels?

So a sorcerer with 10 levels would only be able to cast lower-level spells, but at +10 DC check.

Not quite. Spell save DCs don't automaticly go up when you gain new levels, but caster checks for purposes of dispelling and SR do. If I ever intend to affect enemies with my spells, I can't afford to have the caster check any lower than the maximum it could be for my character level. SR is hard enough to get through at high levels without loss of effective caster level.

I do think PrC can have abilities that make up for high level spells though. Most spells I use most often are 3rd, 4th or 5th level. No wish for me? That's fine, so long as I can still control their minds/blow them up/whatever my theme is. 7th/8th/9th level spells get complicated a lot of times anyway. Just look at timestop, wish, and shapechange. Those spells should be an option for a spellcaster, not the only effective path.

 

[Grog]

The point I'm getting at is that PrC's have to do something that the base classes can't do on their own (or can't do well) or the PrC is going to have no merit.

(...)

The concept, IMO, is more important than the power gain. Sadly, too many people see PrC's as a salad bar of Kewl Powerz to pick & choose from to create the Ultimate I Can Do Anthing And Kick Butt Too character.

I definitely agree with this. I think a big part of the problem is that PrCs have gotten way too common in 3E products. It seems like every supplement that comes out is full of PrCs, regardless of whether or not they're really needed. Prestige classes are so common and so easy to qualify for that there's nothing really "prestigous" about them. When any Tom, Dick, or Harry with 8 ranks in Hide and a couple of feats can become a Ninja Master, it's not really a prestige class in my book.

But anyway, this is going a bit off topic. I definitely don't agree that spellcasters should have to "waste" feats to qualify for a PrC. The problem is, non-spellcasting classes sometimes have to "waste" feats in order to take a PrC too. A barbarian taking a PrC with Toughness as a requirement not only has to waste a feat, but also has to give up his high-level barbarian abilities. While a spellcaster would have to waste the feat, but not give anything else up - which goes back to the initial problem I have with spellcaster PrCs.

 

[LokiDR]

The Red Wizard is a 10 level PrC. It was an example of a nice 10 level +1 caster level potentially well balanced (losing a school to gain benefits).

But my point is if the PrC has to offer a compromise between flavor and balance, 5 lvl of PrC seems like a good compromise to me.

If you only make spellcasting PrCs 5 levels, people will just take another one. They have to deal with 2 sets of requirements, that may overlap. I just don't see 5 levels leading to a complete character. Take the PrC at 6th or 7th level, and by the time the fighter gets clost to Ki Whirlwind for example, you need a new PrC. That loses the "focusing" aspect of the PrC.

The reason why Red Wizard is balanced is because you have to drop a total of 2 schools. Incantantrix, you can get away with 1 school, you get all the benifits of specialization, and some of the strongest abilites in the game. Just limiting spell selection is not neccessarily balancing.

 

[Bastoche]

If you only make spellcasting PrCs 5 levels, people will just take another one. They have to deal with 2 sets of requirements, that may overlap. I just don't see 5 levels leading to a complete character.

My point is that NO spellcasting PrC should have more than 5 lvl with my argument. You may not like my point of view, and that's fine with me, but that's the way I would handle it.

Take the PrC at 6th or 7th level, and by the time the fighter gets clost to Ki Whirlwind for example, you need a new PrC. That loses the "focusing" aspect of the PrC.

Need a new PrC ?!?!?! I thought it was there just for flavor...

The reason why Red Wizard is balanced is because you have to drop a total of 2 schools. Incantantrix, you can get away with 1 school, you get all the benifits of specialization, and some of the strongest abilites in the game. Just limiting spell selection is not neccessarily balancing.

2 or more. Rarely 2 IMO. Anyway I think it's very balancing because it can limit item creation a lot IMO. Well, the argument works only for wizards, but you can't be a sorceror Red Wizard unless you sacrifice one sor level for one wiz level. I'm not very familiar with the incantatrix PrC though. Personnally, I've yet to look at an arcane Spellcaster PrC that appealing to me from any point of view. I find them all lame. And I don't like playing clerics so I haven't looked much at priest PrC...

 

[Spatzimaus]

I have no problem with PrCs that give spellcasting on 5-8 out of 10 levels. I have no problem with 5-level PrCs. It's just that no matter what requirements you give, any class that is absolutely better than a core class is unbalanced.

If you have a class with 8/10 levels having spell progressions, people will stop right before a level that gives no spells. If levels 5 and 10 don't give spells, you'll see a lot of people stop at 4 or 9. Personally I don't think it's a bad thing to lose a spellcasting level, since I prefer the low-end stuff over the high-level spells, but I'm in the minority.

What would be nice is, break it up. One level of a spellcasting class gives you:
> More spells per day or more spell slots
> More known spells
> +1 caster level
> All those other miscellaneous class features (bonus Feats, familiars, domain spells, turning)

So, let's say I make a PrC that gives +1 caster level every level, but on the odd levels increases your spells/day, and on the even levels increases spells known. Or something like that. I've seen some Psionic classes do similar. This way, your spellcasting gets stronger at each level, although you still lose a little power.

As for the 5-level classes, I think they're at their best when designed to mix with other classes; not the sort of class where you enter, and 5 levels later you're done. My character is taking a 5-level custom PrC that gives almost no spellcasting increase (it increases caster level and gives one new known spell each level, that's it), but has lots of other abilities. It was originally a 5/10 PrC with the cool abilities at the even levels; this way is more fun.

 

[LokiDR]

My point is that NO spellcasting PrC should have more than 5 lvl with my argument. You may not like my point of view, and that's fine with me, but that's the way I would handle it.



Need a new PrC ?!?!?! I thought it was there just for flavor...



2 or more. Rarely 2 IMO. Anyway I think it's very balancing because it can limit item creation a lot IMO. Well, the argument works only for wizards, but you can't be a sorceror Red Wizard unless you sacrifice one sor level for one wiz level. I'm not very familiar with the incantatrix PrC though. Personnally, I've yet to look at an arcane Spellcaster PrC that appealing to me from any point of view. I find them all lame. And I don't like playing clerics so I haven't looked much at priest PrC...

Hey, it is one approach. The reason you would "need" another PrC is because you would want to continue your "flavor" and not go back to standard sorceror or wizard.

Incantantrix has improved metamagic. If that doesn't ring a bell, you haven't read enough threads about broken spellcasting The only spellcaster PrC that I have seen that like the flavor of are the "I do strange things" classes, like mindbender, candle caster or alienist. They add something to a standard wizard. Even the elemental savant doesn't really do that.

 

[Grog]

I have no problem with PrCs that give spellcasting on 5-8 out of 10 levels. I have no problem with 5-level PrCs. It's just that no matter what requirements you give, any class that is absolutely better than a core class is unbalanced.

Well, isn't that the whole point of PrCs? To be better than core classes?

The problem I have isn't with PrCs being more powerful than core classes - I expect that. It's that the spellcaster PrCs that give full spell progression require almost no sacrifice on the part of the character taking them, while the same isn't true for non-spellcaster PrCs.

 

[Bastoche]

Hey, it is one approach. The reason you would "need" another PrC is because you would want to continue your "flavor" and not go back to standard sorceror or wizard.

Incantantrix has improved metamagic. If that doesn't ring a bell, you haven't read enough threads about broken spellcasting The only spellcaster PrC that I have seen that like the flavor of are the "I do strange things" classes, like mindbender, candle caster or alienist. They add something to a standard wizard. Even the elemental savant doesn't really do that.

I agree. Nope, I haven't read much broken spellcaster PrC threads, you guessed it . I think they're either too powerful, or not interesting from a role-playing POV... I like straight classes

 

[Bastoche]

Well, isn't that the whole point of PrCs? To be better than core classes?

The problem I have isn't with PrCs being more powerful than core classes - I expect that. It's that the spellcaster PrCs that give full spell progression require almost no sacrifice on the part of the character taking them, while the same isn't true for non-spellcaster PrCs.

Some think (myself included) that it's not the point to have a PrC more powerful than a core class. That would force every player in a party to acquire a PrC to keep the balance.

 

[Pielorinho]

Here's my problem with spellcasting PrCs:

-Sorcerers give up nothing except familiar advancement for entering them. That's because their spells are so dang powerful.
-Wizards give up nothing except familiar advancement and a very few metamagic feats for entering them. That's because their spells are so dang powerful, but they can cast them fewer times than a sorcerer.
-Clerics give up nothing except undead turning and domain powers. That's because their spells are pretty dang powerful.
-Druids give up wildshaping, poison immunity, change self ability, and several other cool funky powers. That's because druid spells are less powerful than any other primarily spellcasting class's spells, and they've got funky abilities to make up for it.

So if a druid enters a spellcasting PrC, she's almost certain to suffer from it, compared to a sorcerer entering a spellcasting PrC. But if you design a spellcasting PrC that has funky powers to balance out those that a druid loses, it ends up being far too powerful for a sorcerer.

In other words, +1 sorcerer spellcasting is more powerful than +1 druid spellcasting. Characters with the same PrC vary widely in power based on the underlying class.

I'm trying to figure out how to level up my druid PC now, and it's annoying me.

Daniel