Spellcaster Prestige Classes: Balanced?

[Marshall]

What would be nice is, break it up. One level of a spellcasting class gives you:
> More spells per day or more spell slots
> More known spells
> +1 caster level
> All those other miscellaneous class features (bonus Feats, familiars, domain spells, turning)

I think you need to break it up even more.

As a rule, Spellcasting PrCs should always give 1/level Caster Level. This does not mean that you should get the higher level spellcasting, just that you will become better at casting the spells you know. A Wiz 5/"X" 5 should have a CL of 10 even tho he may only have the spells per day of a WIZ 7 or WIZ 8. Doing this would enable you to have restricted caster increases while not invalidating the caster portion of the multiclass/PrC.

 

[Xarlen]

I would point out, Piel, like a lot have, that a Sorceror loses a lot for going into a PrC- mainly the few feats and skills they can have.

I agree that there should be some 'gimmie' if a spellcaster is going to lose what he gets best: spellcasting powers.

Look at the Legendary classes. 5 level PrC, +1 Casting Level 3 out of five, and special abiltiies that aren't broken, but are interesting.

That's what I'd like to see. I felt the Blood Magus was rather cool. Or the Black Healer over in the House Rules (THAT has Style out its' yingyang).

Or, and please don't lynch me, the Ghost Walker. The fighter gives up his feats, the rogue his sneak attacks, the Barbarian his rage, the Ranger his... uh... But they get a whole lot in return. Some interesting powers (not Game breaking), but they just scream 'Lone wolf, the Noir Detective guy, the Clint Eastwood type of character'.

A lot of the powers don't really kick in unless his oponents have lowered him to 50% HPs (And he survives the encounter), and he loses all his powers if they know his name.

That is just... well... COOL.

 

[kigmatzomat]

'course, there's always Educated, Cosmopolitan, and Versatile...

-Hyp.

Not having the FraggedRotten Realms book, I dunno what those do. However, I doubt that they will let the sorceror get the minimum skill RANKS any sooner. Sure they give bonuses, but bonuses don't apply to any pre-reqs in "pure" 3E. As written, a sorcerer with no int bonus could have enough skill points by 12th level, assuming he had no other skills. But he still couldn't get those skills high enough due to max class skill rank = Level+3, max cross class = (Level +3)/2 rules. To get a cross-class to skill rank 10 you need to be 17th level.

So even the Broken Realms can't make the Loremaster a sorcerer class.

 

[Sciurus Rex]

I agree with most of the comments I've read here so far. I'm still moving through the thread, so I apologize if this is repeated...

This is one of the few things I kinda blame Monte Cook over. Most of his example Prc's I'm okay with, but the loremaster is almost a free ride for a sorcerer and a complete no-brainer for a diviner. Eventually the designers setteled on reducing the spellcasting progression for most spell based Prc's, but there are still some flaws.

I disagree in part with your assessment here, because the cost of becoming a Loremaster is so darned strict. There's almost no wiggle room to attain the prereqs in a timely manner. If the class looks too powerful, you've got to balance that with the fact that the character loses many other options to reach those bonuses.

 

[hammymchamham]

Not having the FraggedRotten Realms book, I dunno what those do.

So why did you continue to make this post?

However, I doubt that they will let the sorceror get the minimum skill RANKS any sooner. Sure they give bonuses,

Wrong

but bonuses don't apply to any pre-reqs in "pure" 3E.

Correct, but illrelevant

As written, a sorcerer with no int bonus could have enough skill points by 12th level, assuming he had no other skills. But he still couldn't get those skills high enough due to max class skill rank = Level+3, max cross class = (Level +3)/2 rules. To get a cross-class to skill rank 10 you need to be 17th level.

Yes, as mentioned before. But illrelevant to your post, which is about feats you don't know about.

So even the Broken Realms can't make the Loremaster a sorcerer class.

WRONG. Since you know nothing about these feats, the point of your thread was....?

Anyway, what those feats basically do is turn a cross class skill into a class skill. Which would allow a Sorceror to turn some of those prereq knowledge skills into class skills, and get those 10 skill ranks by 7th level. So even the "Broke Realms" CAN make the Loremaster a sorcerer class.

 

[LokiDR]

Not having the FraggedRotten Realms book, I dunno what those do. However, I doubt that they will let the sorceror get the minimum skill RANKS any sooner. Sure they give bonuses, but bonuses don't apply to any pre-reqs in "pure" 3E. As written, a sorcerer with no int bonus could have enough skill points by 12th level, assuming he had no other skills. But he still couldn't get those skills high enough due to max class skill rank = Level+3, max cross class = (Level +3)/2 rules. To get a cross-class to skill rank 10 you need to be 17th level.

So even the Broken Realms can't make the Loremaster a sorcerer class.

Despite your ragging on the Realms, I know at least 2 of the feats listed will work. Cosmopolitian makes one non-exclusive skill a class skill. Educated makes all knowledge skills class skills. So they will let the sorceror become a loremaster.

 

[LokiDR]

I think you need to break it up even more.

As a rule, Spellcasting PrCs should always give 1/level Caster Level. This does not mean that you should get the higher level spellcasting, just that you will become better at casting the spells you know. A Wiz 5/"X" 5 should have a CL of 10 even tho he may only have the spells per day of a WIZ 7 or WIZ 8. Doing this would enable you to have restricted caster increases while not invalidating the caster portion of the multiclass/PrC.

I completely agree.

I think you could make an interesting class out of this, more spells known/cast, and general bonuses to your DCs that is balanced.

 

[Apok]

Well, isn't that the whole point of PrCs? To be better than core classes?

Not better, just different.

(gee, could I have been more vauge on that one? )

A PrC should fall into one of the following categories;

1.) Represent some kind of organization (Red Wizard, Mage of the Arcane Order)

2.) Focus on doing something that can't be done using the core rules (Dragon Disciple, Geomancer)

3.) Focus on enhancing a specific character concept (Duelist, Drunken Master, Alienist)

4.) Make a poor multiclass concept viable (Arcane Trickster, Spellsword)

PrC's shouldn't necessarily be "better" per se, but they do need to introduce something different or usefull. Too many designers see this as an excuse to lump a bunch of freakishly powerful abilities into 10 levels rather than doing something interesting with a concept.

The problem I have isn't with PrCs being more powerful than core classes - I expect that. It's that the spellcaster PrCs that give full spell progression require almost no sacrifice on the part of the character taking them, while the same isn't true for non-spellcaster PrCs.

Well, sadly this is the way spellcasters work. The Wizard and Sorc just don't have a whole lot going for them other than their spells. They've got the worst bab, worst HD, and only one good saving throw. Wizards get some bonus feats and Sorcs get a better familiar but that's about it. There just isn't a whole lot else to give up. This is why PrC's that don't give full spellcasting benefits need to offer something pretty substantial in tradeoff. Some existing PrC's do this well, others do not.

 

[Apok]

But if you have a PrC based on casting metamagic, you shouldn't just require metamagic feat or 3. Those aren't requirements, they are the best way to power your character.

And what's wrong with that? I see nothing wrong with a PrC that focuses on doing neat things w/ metamagic feats requiring at least one or two as a prereq. The Prereqs should flow logically from the PrC concept, not act as some kind of penalty.

Toughness and Run are two that I don't recall from caster PrCs. But most of the time I see Iron Will, it makes at least some sense, seeing as all arcane casting is controling forces far beyond the scope of mortal men.

I was just using those as examples. Iron Will works fine if the PrC in question has to deal with great ammounts of mental stress (Alienist is a prime example, but I don't know if it has Iron Will as a prereq), but I don't like the fact that designers seem to use it haphazardly as a prereq for spellcasting PrC's when they couldn't think of anything else to use.

 

[LokiDR]

And what's wrong with that? I see nothing wrong with a PrC that focuses on doing neat things w/ metamagic feats requiring at least one or two as a prereq. The Prereqs should flow logically from the PrC concept, not act as some kind of penalty.

PrCs don't exsist to power up your character, at least they shouldn't. They maybe more focused, but they should require the character to give something up. One thing you can be forced to give up for the power of the class are the feats/skills you gain before you enter. If you were going to take what the class requires though, you haven't given up anything.

Edit: Like you said. Not better, just different.