D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[Manbearcat]

I have double top secret inside scoop that this was the commercial that inspired the design space for the 5e Champion.

 

[Maxperson]

And it is here that you are now arguing that balance doesn't matter.

No, that's just your Strawman of my argument. My argument is NOT that balance doesn't matter. My argument is that good and bad are subjective, so what you consider to be bad, another could consider to be good. Pointing out that your subjective opinion on the matter is subjective is not in any way, shape of form an argument that balance does not matter.

 

[ph0rk]

I have double top secret inside scoop that this was the commercial that inspired the design space for the 5e Champion.

"Champion makes it easy to own" would have been a pretty good slogan, if only the subclass actually did make it easier to own.

 

[ph0rk]

No, that's just your Strawman of my argument.

No, it was forestalling the fallacy. I'm sorry that bothers you, but that's what it was.

If you had no intention of making one, you'd have ignored the sentence.

 

[Maxperson]

No, it was forestalling the fallacy. I'm sorry that bothers you, but that's what it was.

If you had no intention of making one, you'd have ignored the sentence.

What?!

How about you stop trying to "forestall" things that were never going to happen and just debate what is being said. You'll do much better in the discussion.

 

[Undrave]

The only remaining claim is that it is popular, but being popular does not mean it is not bland (rather, I suspect it is popular because it is bland),

That's probably the best reason why it's popular? They can just say whatever?

 

[Shadowedeyes]

For my own home games I have done a bit of rework for the Champion. I think, if it had been made in a way that increased the overall damage output and out of combat versatility while maintaining the simple playstyle it still would have remained as popular as it was, if not was even more popular.

So while it may be "fine", I don't agree that it couldn't use a boost.

 

[ph0rk]

How about you stop trying to "forestall" things that were never going to happen and just debate what is being said. You'll do much better in the discussion.

I didn't realize this was a competition.

In that case:

Forestalling the "because it is popular" argument, and setting aside flavor, what makes the Champion good?

And, is it good at what it does relative to other options? Remember, I am not asking if it is popular, but if it is effective relative to other choices - both in and out of combat.

 

[Maxperson]

I didn't realize this was a competition.

In that case:

Forestalling the "because it is popular" argument, and setting aside flavor, what makes the Champion good?

1. Its damage output is sufficient for what 5e expects out of characters.
2. It's simple for new players or people who don't want to think too hard about their character.
3. It can hold its own in and out of combat due to bounded accuracy.
4. Improved critical ranges are nice.
5. You can become proficient in exploration and social skills, because remarkable athlete covers the physical.
6. Survivor is really nice. Free healing is pretty good.
7. Two fighting styles is also pretty good. Versatility is a good thing and some can stack.

And, is it good at what it does relative to other options?

That's subjective. If those other options come with classes you dislike or have the wrong flavor, then it's a resounding yes.

Remember, I am not asking if it is popular, but if it is effective relative to other choices - both in and out of combat.

It's effective regardless of any other choice available. Now we're back to 5e being easy. 5e is built so that all classes and subclasses are effective. You don't need to feel pressured into trying to get 2 extra points of damage a round.

 

[Maxperson]

For my own home games I have done a bit of rework for the Champion. I think, if it had been made in a way that increased the overall damage output and out of combat versatility while maintaining the simple playstyle it still would have remained as popular as it was, if not was even more popular.

So while it may be "fine", I don't agree that it couldn't use a boost.

I'm not saying that it couldn't use a boost, either. I'm saying that it's not bad or bad at damage, because the game was built in such a way that it can't be. You have a personal opinion about it being bad at damage, but the math can't show that. The math will only show that it does less than other subclasses and less doesn't equate to bad.