D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

Should spellcasters be as effective as martial characters in combat?

  • 1. Yes, all classes should be evenly balanced for combat at each level.

    Votes: 11 5.3%
  • 2. Yes, spellcasters should be as effective as martial characters in combat, but in a different way

    Votes: 111 53.9%
  • 3. No, martial characters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 49 23.8%
  • 4. No, spellcasters should be superior in combat.

    Votes: 8 3.9%
  • 5. If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?

    Votes: 27 13.1%

  • Poll closed .
5e was designed around ability checks on purpose. However there was no attempt
to balance the ability scores at all.
Dexterity is godly, Intelligence is a dump stat for anybody except Wizards, Wisdom is essential because of Perception, Constitution would be a dump stat if it wasn't linked to HP, Strength is only good for damage and Charisma has too many character who use it as a main stat...

What a mess.
 

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Assuming we're keeping 5e structures in place, you give the caster classes a small, bespoke spell list (4-5 spells per level or so) at the end of the class description. You format it to look like cleric domain spells (i.e. spells are listed horizontally by level, not vertically). You also give them the option to swap out a spell on their spell list each level for a different spell from the book, normally with restrictions. A summoner might be able to swap out for any conjuration spell, for example. A more versatile caster might have a feature akin to bardic Magical Secrets, or have a spellbook that can gain spells from the wizard list.

In a hypothetical revised or new edition, I have spells and maneuvers in the back of the book, organized by spell/maneuver school plus some other thematic organizing principles. Like Arcane, Divine, Primal or White, Black, Blue, Red, Green or Damage/Buff/Utility. Something where you can slice and dice by multiple categories to restrict access to an organized subset, and then do the same as I mentioned above.
I guess my problem with this is that it highlights the very issue involved:

Spellcasters now, at least conceivably, tap into dozens of pages of at least possible options, even if each individual one only taps (say) a dozen pages in total. But it also gets two pages' worth of class features. Non-casters...just get two pages' worth of class features.

That is, and continues to be, the fundamental issue. Casters simply get to play more of the game than anyone else. It's not like Shadowrun, where mundanes have cyber-augmentations and hacking/drone work, which are almost totally off-limits to casters (as cutting up your body directly reduces your Magic stat). There, at least the mundanes get their own, distinct rules-subsets to play with, some of which can be incredibly important.

Branching off a bit from what you specifically said, TwoSix...

Doesn't anyone else at least think it fishy, even if you don't agree that there's a problem, that it's consistently one side getting shortchanged and not the other? Like, with the sole exception of 4e (the edition that got criticized for being "too balanced"), it has essentially never been the case that Fighters do consistently better than Wizards. At early levels, you may have some times where Wizards just don't have enough oomph yet. But even in games pretty much purely ported from early-D&D (which I have played! A little, but still!) I have seen a Wizard of something like 5th or 6th level--high enough to cast invisibility--absolutely blow every other player's contributions out of the water because of what a single spell could do.

And that's not even touching on how magic has always allowed for the creation of entirely new spells. Where do people think Rary's telepathic bond, Snilloc's snowball swarm, and Tasha's hideous laughter came from? These were players inventing new mechanics for their characters. Since when have Fighters, and their "mundane" brethren, been able to invent new mechanics for themselves to use?

We're not just talking about characters that get to play more of D&D than other characters. We're talking about characters that get to add more to the game than others. There are vastly more remembered spellcasters than remembered non-spellcasters; the only Fighter of old whose name I can remember is Robilar, and even looking over the list of Fighters on the Greyhawk wiki is...not particularly inspiring. Fighters tended to be henchmen, retainers, or minor figures. Wizards shaped empires and ended wars.
 

Spellcasters now, at least conceivably, tap into dozens of pages of at least possible options, even if each individual one only taps (say) a dozen pages in total. But it also gets two pages' worth of class features. Non-casters...just get two pages' worth of class features.
TwoSix did mention maneuvers. His proposal wouldn't exclude those being a thing with varied ones available to various two-page classes. It would also probably codify Expertise while we're at it, to save some page text...
 

Dexterity is godly, Intelligence is a dump stat for anybody except Wizards, Wisdom is essential because of Perception, Constitution would be a dump stat if it wasn't linked to HP, Strength is only good for damage and Charisma has too many character who use it as a main stat...

What a mess.
If you require low stats to be roleplayed, intelligence stops being the go to dump stat.
 

Spellcasters now, at least conceivably, tap into dozens of pages of at least possible options, even if each individual one only taps (say) a dozen pages in total. But it also gets two pages' worth of class features. Non-casters...just get two pages' worth of class features.

That is, and continues to be, the fundamental issue. Casters simply get to play more of the game than anyone else. It's not like Shadowrun, where mundanes have cyber-augmentations and hacking/drone work, which are almost totally off-limits to casters (as cutting up your body directly reduces your Magic stat). There, at least the mundanes get their own, distinct rules-subsets to play with, some of which can be incredibly important.
Well, it's tough. I think distinct, bespoke spell lists are absolutely a core part of the D&D identity. I think you cam make magical classes that don't use them, which is one of the ideas that got me on the idea of "2-page classes" originally. (A pyromancer that gets a scaling fire blast ability, gains resistance and immunity to fire, and can summon a fire elemental, as an example.) But they have to exist, and have classes that leverage them, in any version of D&D.

Now, I also think that a maneuver system (like Book of Nine Swords or that Level Up is doing) makes a ton of sense to add to support the "complex martial" space. I also think there's plenty of room to add more mythic/supernatural concepts into the martial space that aren't spell-like in function or narrative, looking at 4e epic destinies as inspiration here.

I mean, we all know WHY 5e doesn't do that, but I don't think it would be impossible to add to future versions of the game as Gen Z becomes the predominant demographic playing the game and doesn't have previous edition baggage.
 

If you require low stats to be roleplayed, intelligence stops being the go to dump stat.
There's no level of INT dumping that can't be countered by lots of CON :p

So, anecdote time! Back in the Adventure League, we ended up faced by a statue holding a mysterious dark orb! All the other players spent nearly 20 minutes doing skill checks and searching the room and wondering what to do and if it was worth doing anything since it was the only thing on this level of the dungeon and all that...

Me, having the best CON score and the worst INT of the gang and some good saving throws decided "Alright, we've wasted enough time. I pick up the orb."

We got into a fight that we won relatively easily and I came out with barely a scratch.

I guess that's ONE 'out of combat' thing a Fighter can do :p
 

(A pyromancer that gets a scaling fire blast ability, gains resistance and immunity to fire, and can summon a fire elemental, as an example.)
Yeah, doesn't even need to have spells... well, maybe the fire manipulation cantrip for dramatic effect.

This reminds me that a thing that was cool about Golden Sun (I know, random tangent) was that there was healing 'spells' for every element at the end of the trilogy. Sure, you had the obvious Healing Water that did multi-target healing, but you could get single-target healing with Earth magic. Then in the sequel you got Fire healing spells! I think they added Wind healing in the third one but it's been a while.
 

Spellcasters now, at least conceivably, tap into dozens of pages of at least possible options, even if each individual one only taps (say) a dozen pages in total. But it also gets two pages' worth of class features. Non-casters...just get two pages' worth of class features.
That's the artefact of D&D doinf spells as bespoke, tightly defined and very specific packages. As each spell can do just one very specific thing, you need a ton of them. Of course this could be done differently, many games do. You could just have 'Fire Magic' skill or some such and you could do various ad-hoc fire-based effects with it. And that sort of system can be a lot of fun, White Wolf's Mage the Ascension worked kinda like that. But this definitely is something that cannot happen in D&D, it simply is a far too big of a change. And yes, you could in theory have a similar exhaustive list of very specific mundane things you could do, but I have to say, I'd find that super jarring and I doubt I would be in alone in this. 4e kinda did this and many people didn't like it, and those powers weren't even as specific than 5e spells are. With magic it is far easier to justify why the things are siloed into bizarrely specific independent packages as none of it is real anyway, but with mundane abilities that people are far more familiar with it's not gonna fly.
 

That's the artefact of D&D doinf spells as bespoke, tightly defined and very specific packages. As each spell can do just one very specific thing, you need a ton of them. Of course this could be done differently, many games do. You could just have 'Fire Magic' skill or some such and you could do various ad-hoc fire-based effects with it. And that sort of system can be a lot of fun, White Wolf's Mage the Ascension worked kinda like that. But this definitely is something that cannot happen in D&D, it simply is a far too big of a change. And yes, you could in theory have a similar exhaustive list of very specific mundane things you could do, but I have to say, I'd find that super jarring and I doubt I would be in alone in this. 4e kinda did this and many people didn't like it, and those powers weren't even as specific than 5e spells are. With magic it is far easier to justify why the things are siloed into bizarrely specific independent packages as none of it is real anyway, but with mundane abilities that people are far more familiar with it's not gonna fly.
So...is this then admitting that, in D&D, it is simply impossible to balance casters with non-casters?

If we address the fact that casters have access to more of the game (and, at least in theory, the ability to write more game), fans will reject it because it's "not D&D anymore."

If we address the fact that non-casters don't have special game options unique to them, fans will reject it for being "unrealistic" or for "fighters shooting lightning bolts out of their hindquarters" or the like.

It very much seems to be that you are saying that the fanbase simultaneously wants a game where Fighters are supposed to be of more-or-less equal "value to the team," but rejects every possible means of actually supporting this result with the rules.
 

So...is this then admitting that, in D&D, it is simply impossible to balance casters with non-casters?

If we address the fact that casters have access to more of the game (and, at least in theory, the ability to write more game), fans will reject it because it's "not D&D anymore."

If we address the fact that non-casters don't have special game options unique to them, fans will reject it for being "unrealistic" or for "fighters shooting lightning bolts out of their hindquarters" or the like.

It very much seems to be that you are saying that the fanbase simultaneously wants a game where Fighters are supposed to be of more-or-less equal "value to the team," but rejects every possible means of actually supporting this result with the rules.
No. But a D&D where martials and casters have similar mechanics will be rejected. We already know this. Having different mechanics doesn't inherently mean that the classes cannot be balanced, unless if you consider the page count dedicated to the various mechanics to be the measure of balance.
 
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