Spellcasting Prodigy - Whats the beef?

[Wolfen Priest]

I really think this thread has begun to get silly/ridiculous.

For one thing, it seems a lot of people don't quite understand/agree on how the feat even works. For another thing, I'm completely convinced that my initial opinion on this feat will continue to be my opinion on it forever.

I mean, comparing it to weapon focus makes no sense to me, because, realistically, any character can spend a little more time practicing with a weapon to become better at it than he would otherwise be. Virtually every character in the game world can do this, and it still makes logical sense to the world.

OTOH, if every (primarily) spellcasting character in a given world (in this case FR of course) pretty much takes SCP (and so far no one has successfully demonstrated why you wouldn't take it, IMHO), then that makes everyone who is primarily a caster a *prodigy*, which doesn't make sense in a logical world.

If you have to *forestall* getting other feats like Improved Initiative, big deal. The fact is you can only take the SCP at first level, so you should. Any player who really knows how to min/max would, IMHO.

If you like the feat, and want to use it in your campaign, I personally couldn't care less. No one is trying to take this feat away from anyone else, or out of anyone's game. But how can so many people honestly not understand why some of us would NOT want this feat in our campaigns?

Comparing it to iron rations and weapon specialization may be found witty by some, but it really does little to prove any point, because, in the case of WS, it comes from a combat specialist mastering a particular weapon through training. Every fighter of a given level *would* become such a master, most likely. But every wizard a prodigy? Come on.

 

[The Serge]

I really think this thread has begun to get silly/ridiculous.

OTOH, if every (primarily) spellcasting character in a given world (in this case FR of course) pretty much takes SCP (and so far no one has successfully demonstrated why you wouldn't take it, IMHO), then that makes everyone who is primarily a caster a *prodigy*, which doesn't make sense in a logical world.

Uhhh.... Do all of the high powered NPCs in FR have this Feat? I know Manshoon has it... I'll look into that when I get home.

In my world, the vast majority of my NPCs do NOT have it, including the epic-level characters. They don't have it because many them were not born with an inherent predisposition to become whatever kind of spellcaster they ended up being and because, from a game design perspective, I know exactly where these characters come from and why they have the Feats and Skills they possess. So far no one has successfully demonstrated why a spellcaster would always take it any more than why every single melee class would have to take Weapon Focus (I have fighters in my world that do not have Weapon Focus because of various reasons).

 

[Zerovoid]

Even if you don't think that this feat is as good as spell focus, I think most players would take it at first level. In the short term, it bumps an 18 primary stat up to 20 giving you an extra spell right away. And you get +1 DC to all saves.

Now, for alot of characters that might not be as good as spell focus. I think it is, but I guess others disagree. The thing is, SCP stacks with spell focus. Once you have SF and GSF, where are you going to easily get more DC for your spells. At this point, you would probably take a feat called Kind of OK Spell Focus, which only gave an additional +1, because you want the DC still higher. Or, you could have delayed your other feats, and taken SCP at 1st level.

SPC doesn't have to be as good as SF and GSF, because it stacks with them. Its not a matter of which one to take, because you will probably take them all.

 

[apsuman]

I really think this thread has begun to get silly/ridiculous.

For one thing, it seems a lot of people don't quite understand/agree on how the feat even works. For another thing, I'm completely convinced that my initial opinion on this feat will continue to be my opinion on it forever.

I mean, comparing it to weapon focus makes no sense to me, because, realistically, any character can spend a little more time practicing with a weapon to become better at it than he would otherwise be. Virtually every character in the game world can do this, and it still makes logical sense to the world.

OTOH, if every (primarily) spellcasting character in a given world (in this case FR of course) pretty much takes SCP (and so far no one has successfully demonstrated why you wouldn't take it, IMHO), then that makes everyone who is primarily a caster a *prodigy*, which doesn't make sense in a logical world.

If you have to *forestall* getting other feats like Improved Initiative, big deal. The fact is you can only take the SCP at first level, so you should. Any player who really knows how to min/max would, IMHO.

If you like the feat, and want to use it in your campaign, I personally couldn't care less. No one is trying to take this feat away from anyone else, or out of anyone's game. But how can so many people honestly not understand why some of us would NOT want this feat in our campaigns?

Comparing it to iron rations and weapon specialization may be found witty by some, but it really does little to prove any point, because, in the case of WS, it comes from a combat specialist mastering a particular weapon through training. Every fighter of a given level *would* become such a master, most likely. But every wizard a prodigy? Come on.

In short terms, one of the ways to determine if a feat is too powerful is if everyone wants to take it. By that determination, comparing it to Weapon Focus or any other feat is valid.

However, you claim that everyone should take this feat. It has been my (albeit limited) experience that is just not the case. Others have said (and prehaps I inferred) that their casters simply found other feats to be better, either for thier characters or just objectively better.

Now, you might think all of your spell casting characters should have it but that is not the same for everyone else.

The extra DC is good, but depending on your caster type it might not be as important as: higher initiative, spell focus, some metamagic, spell penetration, or any other feat. Also, feats are limited in number saying that you can just take improved initiative later is not truely fair. Taking ImpInit at level 3 means no Still Spell, which means at level 6, you have to choose between still, silent, and empower (for this fictious character).

Also, since humans get a bonus feat the feat possibilities really really narrow for non-humans.

I do think that SCP has one hidden benefit, it allows you to act like your main spell casting attribute is 2 points higher and that allows for a little wiggle room in point buy situations. But if you talk about that extra spell it give you for having an effective int of 24, then you already have an effective int of 22! I think that this is the weakest marginal benefit offered by SCP.

If you were a sorcerer, you already get loads of spells per day. So the extra slots only really help the wizard. If you are wizard and you still use everyone of your first and fourth level spell slots at that level of play where SCP gives you one more of each, I have some advice for you : MAGIC ITEMS. Given that I assert that this feat is disproportionally favors wizards, if you were a wizard and a specialist, then spell focus would be a better deal for you. So, this is a really really good feat for a generalist wizard.


g!

 

[Sigma]

I tend towards artillery platform type spellcasters. All my min-maxing goes towards high DC's, high spellcasting attribute, and a large number of spells. Not counting the wizard's free feats, a straight spellcaster will get 7 feats by 20th level (8 if they're human.) Now, to do artillery right, you're going to need spell penetration and possibly greater spell penetration. There are too many creatures out there with SR *cough* dragons *cough*, and to be a good artillery mage, you're gonna need to penetrate that. So, now we've got 5 feats left. To be a good munchkin, you'll also want to hit spell focus and greater spell focus for a school like enchantment. That takes you down to 3. Those are your metamagic feats in my book. Enlarge, silent, quicken, shape spell, heighten (for sorcerers) and energy substitution are my favorites.

What's my point?

I dunno, don't think I really have one. I guess that I would probably take SCP, but with the understanding that in doing so, I'm giving up a metamagic feat. It is something of a must have for spellcasters, but so is power attack for barbarians.

I say, give it a whirl, and see if it's overpowered in play. If you've got a player whining for it, my suggestiong would be to drop one aspect of it (have it give the +1 to DC's or the extra spell for a higher ability score, but not both) and try that instead. The FR feats are pretty powerful, and a feat that gives you +1 to all DC's is still a pretty good feat IMO.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

How is that easily sidestepped? You take it at first level or you never get it. It seems rather black and white to me.

Because not every character starts at first level in many campaigns.

If you start your character at first level and take SCP, you are paying a real price by not having either Improved Initiative or Combat Casting when you need them most desperately. Fair enough, that.

If you start your wizard at higher level then you do not need to make this tough call. SCP is effectively "cheaper" for such a wizard, but it is just as useful if not more so.

IMO that is mechanically unsound.

 

[Garmorn]

Re: Better ++

With the Extra Spell feat, you get one more spell, and it doesn't get better. With SCP, as your Int goes up, you get a higher level spell. So it is already better, without even the +1 to DC, which is also better than Spell Focus.

Sweet feat, SCP.

Mmm, this must be a difference in play style, I love transmuters and even my 13th level Transmuter relies more on his 2nd level spells then others. My prefered feats for them are extend, empower, spell focus, point blank shot and precise shot. I don't need a pitty +1 DC, and I prefer more 2nd and 3rd level spells over more 4th or 5th level spells so extra spells is what I want to take so I can chose where to have those extra slots. Eagle Splendor on a Paladin who has Divine Might does far more damage then I can do. Exspecialy when I have cast greater magic weapon on their +1 Holy weapon. In combat I like to use a light crossbow with greater magic weapon on both it and it's bolts and alow the other to do most of the damage.

 

[Ristamar]

And what about -Power Attack-? How is that for a pushy feat. I guess if you a are a melee guy and you don't take PA, you can just take Toughness over and over. hehe

Indeed. No slight intended. Power Attack is the shizzle...

And I do believe the 1st level restriction is a balancing factor (a small one, but a factor nonetheless). Almost every campaign I've been in has started at level 1. If you don't start at 1st level, it's far easier to minmax than it is through normal progression, making the choice to take SCP a much easier decision.

From what I've seen, PC's tend to be a bit more reactive and flexible with their feats and class selection in regard to the world around them as their character develops. It's generally far easier to stray from a plotted path when you have to trudge through all those levels rather than whipping up a higher level character on the spot. It merely requires a concept that can be executed (or partially executed) immeditately, lacking a lot of in-game dedication.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

From what I've seen, PC's tend to be a bit more reactive and flexible with their feats and class selection in regard to the world around them as their character develops. It's generally far easier to stray from a plotted path when you have to trudge through all those levels rather than whipping up a higher level character on the spot. It merely requires a concept that can be executed (or partially executed) immeditately, lacking a lot of in-game dedication.

True enough. Play in some rough in tumble adventures with 1st level characters and grabbing Toughness looks very savvy. It vastly increases your likelihood of reaching 2nd level. You have a different perspective on feats when you are rolling up your third character.

 

[Paragon]

OTOH, if every (primarily) spellcasting character in a given world (in this case FR of course) pretty much takes SCP (and so far no one has successfully demonstrated why you wouldn't take it, IMHO), then that makes everyone who is primarily a caster a *prodigy*, which doesn't make sense in a logical world.
QUOTE]

and here we have the root of the problem. one side says "i think, or i can't see how everyone wouldn't take this."
and the other side says "this is what i've seen"

We've had 11 arcane spell casters created since the FRCS came out alone. and we've had 1, one, ONE, SCP character in all that time. That is why i say i just don't see it as a uber feat. good. yes, character defining? yes. uber, best all, must have? no not even close.
suppose all you want. until i see it i won't believe it.

Paragon