Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
I use it to offset racial penalties (dwarf, half-orc) when I want to play a spellcaster from a race that isn't ordinarily cut out for it.
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Spellcasting Prodigy - Whats the beef?
- Thread starter Oni
- Start date
Gez said:I've seen more characters with Improved Initiative than ones with SCP.
I've seen more characters with Power Attack than ones with SCP.
Heck, I've even seen more characters with Skill Focus than ones with SCP !
SCP is useful if you want to minmax your save DC or get a few bonus spells per day (up to one bonus spell each four spell levels: for example, 1, 5, 9, depending on your base Int score).
But frankly, otherwise, it sucks.
I've yet to see a prestige class that requires it, for example.
Another tidbit is that this spell is itsn't that great for multiclassed spellcasters, as it boosts your Int, Cha, or Wis only for one class. This means that a bard/sorcerer will only benefit of his heightened Cha for one of his class spells. A ranger/druid/cleric/paladin (what alignment problem ?) will likewise only benefit of a heightened Wis for, say, his cleric spells. (Not a much important point, however: multiclassed spellcasters sucks.)
That AINT'T a rule-0 ! That's the standard rule !
What kind of a comparison is that?!?
Its like saying, i have seen more characters with spell penetration than someone actually taking heavy armor prof. Obviously arcane casters will not take power attack(as stated in your example).
And SPC Rox. I regret my cleric not taking it, but then FRCS came out while my character was higher than 1st. Making DC's tougher, no matter how much is ALWAYS good. The whole point of casting fireballs and slay livings is that you hope to affect the target. A DC increased by 1 can help that. It is just like using a shield or adding +1 to your armor or shield. And it also gives you an extra spell. Doesnt matter if it happens later, it still gives you a spell.
No other feat grants you a DC increase as well as a spell. Its either one or the other. Just because you can only take it at 1st level doesn't limit it. Its like saying expertise sux at lower levels. Lower levels are where a +1 modifier matter a LOT.
I am not saying that it is a must have, but in general i see no feat that i would rather have at 1st.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Actually, Spellfire Wielders usually don't need to concentrate to absorb the spell. As rod of absorption, you do it automatically.
You also don't need to make a level check. It just *happens*.
So there is rule-zeroing. But the single-target thing isn't, that I was wrong in. Oops. I just remember having a discussion about whether or not it affects area spells with regard to the character or not.
But aparently the player was *way* off on it...
Basically, I thought giving someone a 50,000 gp magical item I couldn't break and that was more versatile was quite a bit potent. It was a cool idea, so I wanted to preserve the intent without distorting the power of it.
Just because your characters don't take it doesn't mean it's a weaker feat. It just perhaps means they haven't min-maxed to their utmost benefit. Or that they thought, for the creatures you throw at them or the kinds of adventures they went on, things like Improved Init., Power Attack (for a spellcaster?!), or Skill Focus were more important than upping the DC's a bit and getting an extra launch of fireball or magic missile a day.
Like I said, it's kind of borderline. It only is weaker in respect to what other kinds of feats can do...it can do more for a less cost. It makes Extra Spell or Spell Focus nearly obsolete (not totally, but it weakens their power quite a bit).
There's nothing really horrible about that, but it does bear a comparison. It is a potent feat. It's not uncontrollable, but it is potent.
There's a few feats like that in the FRCS...potent, but not game-breakingly potent. Like...
Bloodline of Fire
Education
Horse Nomad
Luck of Heroes
Magical Training
Militia
Strong Soul
Thunder Twin
Things that, when compared with feats in the PHB, can do more, or can do it better. Not things that'll distort the game, but things that are very appealing to take...too appealing, IMHO.
You may see people take others, perhaps frequently. But that doesn't change the fact that these remain a cut above the rest...
I mean, how is martial weapon proficiency *and* a bonus to a skill *not* more powerful than a slightly larger bonus or a proficiency alone?
Not to the point where it gets rediculous or extra-potent, or even that you'll see everyone taking it. Just in comparison. If I had a woodland sniper type, I probably wouldn't take it...but that wouldn't change the fact that it is better than comprable feats.
You also don't need to make a level check. It just *happens*.
So there is rule-zeroing. But the single-target thing isn't, that I was wrong in. Oops.
I just remember having a discussion about whether or not it affects area spells with regard to the character or not.But aparently the player was *way* off on it...
Basically, I thought giving someone a 50,000 gp magical item I couldn't break and that was more versatile was quite a bit potent. It was a cool idea, so I wanted to preserve the intent without distorting the power of it.
Just because your characters don't take it doesn't mean it's a weaker feat. It just perhaps means they haven't min-maxed to their utmost benefit. Or that they thought, for the creatures you throw at them or the kinds of adventures they went on, things like Improved Init., Power Attack (for a spellcaster?!), or Skill Focus were more important than upping the DC's a bit and getting an extra launch of fireball or magic missile a day.
Like I said, it's kind of borderline. It only is weaker in respect to what other kinds of feats can do...it can do more for a less cost. It makes Extra Spell or Spell Focus nearly obsolete (not totally, but it weakens their power quite a bit).
There's nothing really horrible about that, but it does bear a comparison. It is a potent feat. It's not uncontrollable, but it is potent.
There's a few feats like that in the FRCS...potent, but not game-breakingly potent. Like...
Bloodline of Fire
Education
Horse Nomad
Luck of Heroes
Magical Training
Militia
Strong Soul
Thunder Twin
Things that, when compared with feats in the PHB, can do more, or can do it better. Not things that'll distort the game, but things that are very appealing to take...too appealing, IMHO.
You may see people take others, perhaps frequently. But that doesn't change the fact that these remain a cut above the rest...
I mean, how is martial weapon proficiency *and* a bonus to a skill *not* more powerful than a slightly larger bonus or a proficiency alone?
Not to the point where it gets rediculous or extra-potent, or even that you'll see everyone taking it. Just in comparison. If I had a woodland sniper type, I probably wouldn't take it...but that wouldn't change the fact that it is better than comprable feats.
As another poster has mentioned - it gives more than 'just one extra spell slot'.
At high levels, and high base stat scores, it gives an extra 1st, 4th and 9th level spell.
This is why people object. This feat can give you an extra 9th level spell. AND a 4th (an extra stoneskin?) and a first (extra magic missle?)
Three extra spells.
At lower, more reasonable stat numbers, you still end up with two extra spells at mid-high levels.
As a wizard, especially, when *all* you have are spells, anything which gives you extra ones is Great. Almost a must have, in my opinion.
First level wizard gets 1 spell, +1 for an Int <19, +1 to specialist. Three spells. Three puny little spells. With the feat, you get an extra. Four. The equivilent of a second level wizard. Just because of a feat. How cool is that???? And the DC is higher!
I will always ask if this feat is available when making a wizard or sorcerer. Clerics have fewer feats, and can make use of some combat ones, so it would be a harder sell for them. But for the straight wizard - oh yeah, I'll take the ability to cast a few extra spells each and every day.
If the feat just gave you the bonus spells, it would still be taken occasionally.
If the feat just raised the DC of every school by one, it would still be taken occasionally.
But it does both. And in my opinion, any wizard who does not take it is missing out.
At high levels, and high base stat scores, it gives an extra 1st, 4th and 9th level spell.
This is why people object. This feat can give you an extra 9th level spell. AND a 4th (an extra stoneskin?) and a first (extra magic missle?)
Three extra spells.
At lower, more reasonable stat numbers, you still end up with two extra spells at mid-high levels.
As a wizard, especially, when *all* you have are spells, anything which gives you extra ones is Great. Almost a must have, in my opinion.
First level wizard gets 1 spell, +1 for an Int <19, +1 to specialist. Three spells. Three puny little spells. With the feat, you get an extra. Four. The equivilent of a second level wizard. Just because of a feat. How cool is that???? And the DC is higher!
I will always ask if this feat is available when making a wizard or sorcerer. Clerics have fewer feats, and can make use of some combat ones, so it would be a harder sell for them. But for the straight wizard - oh yeah, I'll take the ability to cast a few extra spells each and every day.
If the feat just gave you the bonus spells, it would still be taken occasionally.
If the feat just raised the DC of every school by one, it would still be taken occasionally.
But it does both. And in my opinion, any wizard who does not take it is missing out.
reiella
Explorer
Err, the only time Spell Casting prodigy give an extra 1st, 5th, and 9th level spell... is if you happen to have 42-43 int/cha/wis without it.
Until then, it's still at most, 2 spells, and that only starts at 18.
Hmm I guess it's possible to get up to 42 or so int/cha/wis with elh though, but in core only one combo can result in it 18 +2 (Race Elf), +6 (Age),+6 (enhancement),+5 (inherent), +5 (char boosts). Of course, for the sun elf to get that, they need to putz around for ~240 years first, and suffer with having -8 con, -6 str, and -6 dex. And of course being level 20 (else it's just two bonus spells).
Until then, it's still at most, 2 spells, and that only starts at 18.
Hmm I guess it's possible to get up to 42 or so int/cha/wis with elh though, but in core only one combo can result in it 18 +2 (Race Elf), +6 (Age),+6 (enhancement),+5 (inherent), +5 (char boosts). Of course, for the sun elf to get that, they need to putz around for ~240 years first, and suffer with having -8 con, -6 str, and -6 dex. And of course being level 20 (else it's just two bonus spells).
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
That's 2 spells, one high level and one juicy mid-level spell if you have high Int. An extra Fireball is a handy thing to have
I would argue ithat +1 to all DCs is much better than Spell Focus. Lot's of casters do take Spell Focus.
SCP is a no brainer for any mid level straight caster with a good primary stat, or any high level character. That is not everyone, but it covers a lot of territory.
I sympathize with the argument that a character who starts at 1st level and doesn't take Improved Initiative or Combat Casting to have this feat has in some way earned it, even if I still have qualms. Most characters in most campaigns do not start from 1st level, so this metagame balance argument does not apply.
IMHO, a feat that gives you extra spells as if you had a stat +2 higher is a fair feat. IMHO, a feat that gives +1 to all your spell DCs is a fair feat. A feat that does both those things is overpowered in my book.
The limitation, having to take it at first level, is mechanically unsound because it is too easy to sidestep in most campaigns.
I would argue ithat +1 to all DCs is much better than Spell Focus. Lot's of casters do take Spell Focus.
SCP is a no brainer for any mid level straight caster with a good primary stat, or any high level character. That is not everyone, but it covers a lot of territory.
I sympathize with the argument that a character who starts at 1st level and doesn't take Improved Initiative or Combat Casting to have this feat has in some way earned it, even if I still have qualms. Most characters in most campaigns do not start from 1st level, so this metagame balance argument does not apply.
IMHO, a feat that gives you extra spells as if you had a stat +2 higher is a fair feat. IMHO, a feat that gives +1 to all your spell DCs is a fair feat. A feat that does both those things is overpowered in my book.
The limitation, having to take it at first level, is mechanically unsound because it is too easy to sidestep in most campaigns.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
It's a bit wonky, IMHO. I can understand why they did it for flavor purposes, but it's not a balance.
Just because less people can take it doesn't mean you can make it more powerful. That seems to be the method of balance in a good chunk of the FR stuff...if it's hard enough to get, they can make it powerful, because only a few people will have it.
I don't think that's really true, myself. By limiting a feat to "first level only," you don't stop powerful monsters from getting it later than when they have 4 hp. And it also puts rather unnessecary constraints on character development. If you don't take it, you're not maximizing your potential, but if you do take it and don't use it (say, you thought you'd take a level of Sorc later, but it turns out that Druid more properly fits your character concept that you've grown into...), well, it's basically a wasted feat.
Just because it's less frequent does not mean it should be more powerful, IMHO.
And I don't know about everyone else, but if you don't buy that the "only at level 1" is a limiting factor, then there's no real reason to allow them to take it at any level.
I mean, it's kinda like saying you can only be a Sorcerer at level one, or you can never be a sorcerer...doesn't make sense for you to not unlock the power of dragon blood for a bunch of levels and then suddenly become born of dragons....
And then making the Sorcerer more powerful because they can only be taken at LV 1....
Doesn't work, as far as I can see.
I could be mistaken, though.
Just because less people can take it doesn't mean you can make it more powerful. That seems to be the method of balance in a good chunk of the FR stuff...if it's hard enough to get, they can make it powerful, because only a few people will have it.
I don't think that's really true, myself. By limiting a feat to "first level only," you don't stop powerful monsters from getting it later than when they have 4 hp. And it also puts rather unnessecary constraints on character development. If you don't take it, you're not maximizing your potential, but if you do take it and don't use it (say, you thought you'd take a level of Sorc later, but it turns out that Druid more properly fits your character concept that you've grown into...), well, it's basically a wasted feat.
Just because it's less frequent does not mean it should be more powerful, IMHO.
And I don't know about everyone else, but if you don't buy that the "only at level 1" is a limiting factor, then there's no real reason to allow them to take it at any level.
I mean, it's kinda like saying you can only be a Sorcerer at level one, or you can never be a sorcerer...doesn't make sense for you to not unlock the power of dragon blood for a bunch of levels and then suddenly become born of dragons....
And then making the Sorcerer more powerful because they can only be taken at LV 1....
Doesn't work, as far as I can see.
I could be mistaken, though.
Truth be told, I think this entire discussion/argument is pretty stale considering this is the 1,000,000th time this topic has come up since the feat was first leaked over the net via 'Realms .pdf previews... someone can now come up and claim their prize.
Spellcasting Prodigy is an attractive feat for serious, focused spellcasters (ones that don't break up their spell progression very much and have a high score in the relevant ability). Big deal. All serious fighter types take Weapon Focus and Cleave and probably (eventually) Weapon Specialization, too. Are they all broken? In fact, I think Weapon Focus is probably one of the most popular feats in 3rd Edition. Seems everyone and their grandmother has the freakin' thing. And we've all seen the 'interesting' situations you can create with Cleave/Great Cleave, especially when you toss AoO's in the mix.
In the grander scheme of things, Spellcasting Prodigy looks almost as attractive as Skill Focus (the +2 version, none of this +3 House Rule crap *smirk*) when compared to Epic Level feats, though you'd think it almost be up to snuff with them considering all the outcries of 'munchkin' hurled against it.
I feel sorry for the poor feat. I think it gets a bad rap.
Spellcasting Prodigy is an attractive feat for serious, focused spellcasters (ones that don't break up their spell progression very much and have a high score in the relevant ability). Big deal. All serious fighter types take Weapon Focus and Cleave and probably (eventually) Weapon Specialization, too. Are they all broken? In fact, I think Weapon Focus is probably one of the most popular feats in 3rd Edition. Seems everyone and their grandmother has the freakin' thing. And we've all seen the 'interesting' situations you can create with Cleave/Great Cleave, especially when you toss AoO's in the mix.
In the grander scheme of things, Spellcasting Prodigy looks almost as attractive as Skill Focus (the +2 version, none of this +3 House Rule crap *smirk*) when compared to Epic Level feats, though you'd think it almost be up to snuff with them considering all the outcries of 'munchkin' hurled against it.
I feel sorry for the poor feat. I think it gets a bad rap.
