D&D 5E Spells that turned out to be a lot more powerful than you thought

[Fanaelialae]

So? Who says that every monster has to attack on round 1? In fact, good planning on the PCs part SHOULD be trying to prevent that very thing from happening if possible.

I never said that every monster had to attack in round 1, I said it was a tradeoff. And yes, its good tactics on the PCs part to limit the enemies number of attacks (whether by funneling them through a narrow passage or engaging melee creatures at range). However, it does make the encounter easier if the enemy can't all attack on round one. There's a big difference between an encounter with 20 enemies where they can all attack on round 1 (perhaps because they have a good ranged option) and one in which 20 enemies come at them in smaller waves. The former is likely to hurt at lot more than the latter.

IMO anyway, monsters should always behave as they normally would, and metagaming stuff needs to get thrown out the window. A laregish group of bullywugs, in their home terrain not expecting an attack, should be spread out meandering along instead of in some sort of quasi Roman formation just because it means they all get to attack in round 1.

I agree that metagame stuff should be thrown out the window. As I said in my previous post, I wouldn't have bullywugs adopt a modern military formation (which I thought you were suggesting as a counter to fireball, but perhaps I misunderstood your intent) or a Roman one because I don't think they'd normally be disciplined enough to utilize such tactics. Personally, I'd arrange them in small clusters, because this would arguably help deter natural predators, which is probably a more common concern for them. Unfortunately, this would either make them prime candidates for a fireball if the groups are near each other, or make it easy to pick off individual groups one at a time if they're far from each other. In the latter case, using a 3rd level spell slot might be a waste of resources.

If they can readily attack the PCs, then they're vulnerable to fireball. If they're can't, it was likely an easy encounter anyway, and Conjure Animals simply made it easier. In the first case it means it's on par with other third level spells, while in the second it only shows that this scenario isn't a good test case for determining how balanced conjure animals is compared to other 3rd level spells.

 

[Ahrimon]

it's funny, but I have found (and it might just be me and the guys I play with) that I do much better as a PC with tactics then with NPCs. I have too much going through my mind, and at the end of the day I don't really want to win.

I mean my goal may be to beat up the PCs, but when I play my goal is the totatl slaughter of the NPCs...

As a former wargamer I find it all to easy to optimize my NPCs combat tactics. Fortunately I've recognized this and make a conscious effort to ensure that I tailor the tactics to the NPC. Animals will not use any tactics that you wouldn't expect an animal to use, goblins might use some, hobgoblins will have every trick in the book available to them, etc.

 

[Hussar]

rather than do more post quote chains, I will reiterate

if you're looking at dpr as a comparison, stop. I've already said at least twice that there are other benefits that are of equal importance. Preventing damage or other effects that would target the party, affecting monsters' movement, being able to move around obstacles themselves, duration, etc are all equally important

the spell says to summon beasts. Goblins or orcs aren't beasts, so it's flawed right from the get go to compare wolves with goblins by looking at their CR.

40ft diameter is not the big. Get your mind out of the dungeon and look outside. Seriously, go outside and mark it off. 15 bullywugs and 5 giant toads, out on a random meandering patrol, won't have all that many in that radius. Heck, in the military you're taught to stay 5m away from the guy in front of you so you don't get taken out by grenades. In a world where fireballs, moonbeams, and stinking clouds exist, I'm sure every other humanoid would do the same tactics

That would trail out a section nearly one hundred and fifty feet! You want half a football field between the lead of your section and the rear? Never mind at company level you'd be stretched back half a mile.

I dunno what patrols you were on, but that's pretty excessive. Never mind advancing in line.

Plus, you are talking about well trained infantry, not a bunch of semi intelligent frogs.

Expecting clumps is hardly a stretch here.

 

[Ahrimon]

Even Native Americans would spread out. You cover more area that way. Especially when hunting or patrolling. Two to four columns 15 feet apart with rows that are 10-20 feet apart isn't unbelievable for the more primitive races.

edit... stupid third world internets

 

[Sacrosanct]

That would trail out a section nearly one hundred and fifty feet! You want half a football field between the lead of your section and the rear? Never mind at company level you'd be stretched back half a mile.

I dunno what patrols you were on, but that's pretty excessive. Never mind advancing in line.

No it's not. It's pretty par for the course actually. The opposite of excessive as as matter of fact. Seriously, go outside and actually look at what 50 yards looks like. It's not nearly as far as you think, especially when you're dealing with a lot of bodies. And that's assuming they were all in a straight line. They weren't. they were scattered about, meandering as a largeish group in their home swamp. Also, they have an INT of 7. That's only slightly below average. That's smart enough to figure out to keep spacing from AOE attacks I would think.

Some times I think nerds get so caught up in minis games that they forget what scale looks like in real life

 

[Sacrosanct]

Here is an example of a typical patrol spread. How many do you think would be caught in a 40ft radius?

 

[Psikerlord#]

There's also some debate though over who gets to chose the creatures, since it's not clearly worded. The only thing that is clear is that the player gets to chose the CR, the "DM has the statistics" otherwise. So there is a couple of things.

1. Maybe these pixies don't have polymorph.
2. Maybe there are no pixies in the region for you to summon.

So on paper yeah, it's a powerful spell. But as a DM I'd never let my player abuse it in this way.

I think this is one spell they will actually errata, changing it to something like, the creatures are friendly to the caster, but the DM determines what they do. So if you want them to turn your whole party invisible for instance, you may need to bargain with them, etc.

 

[PnPgamer]

I think this is one spell they will actually errata, changing it to something like, the creatures are friendly to the caster, but the DM determines what they do. So if you want them to turn your whole party invisible for instance, you may need to bargain with them, etc.

"Turn us invisible and we destroy that bad guy who is screwing around your forests"

 

[Psikerlord#]

"Turn us invisible and we destroy that bad guy who is screwing around your forests"

Yes that may well work sometimes, but it will all depend on the situation. It's certainly a lot better than autopixie obeys orders.

 

[Hussar]

Here is an example of a typical patrol spread. How many do you think would be caught in a 40ft radius?

Yup. About five feet between. Looks about right.