D&D 5E Spells you house rule?

[James Gasik]

It's concentration, so you'd need to choose 1 person to keep casting it on, probably just on yourself. I could see people keeping it up at all times just in case, it stops other concentration effects, and will be very noisy, and people will be looking weird at them, so it prob balances it out.

Oh right, fair enough, but still, this is one of those things where it's like, if the DM is too much of a stickler for how it's being used the player is either going to not use it at all, or assume it's on the same kind of cantrip rotation as light, where they just keep refreshing it whenever it's about to go out.

 

[James Gasik]

Guidance lasts one minute. This means you're moving to be within arms reach of and praying out loud for the success of each companion once every minute all day?

No thanks.

I agree that in noncombat situations we can be a bit flexible with time and exact positioning. There are certainly situations, like when the rogue is about to pick a lock or search a chest for traps, when the whole party (or most of it) is likely to be watching, and there's an obvious pause for the rogue to get ready, that it seems obvious that the Cleric could and would cast it. I'm not going to be super strict about "no take-backs!" in a situation like that. But there are plenty of situations where it makes no sense at all. Ones where the Cleric character in-game had no opportunity to pray for success on an action, because he didn't know one was about to be taken, or because he was busy doing something else.

What? You get 10 actions a minute. It's not like it's hard to keep casting a cantrip ever 10th round. And yeah, as was pointed out, you can't actually hit everyone with it, but you could keep it going on your best spotter/trap finder/what have you. I mean, what else are you doing as the party creeps along exploring?

I've played at a lot of tables, and I've never once seen anyone give the Wizard havoc for keeping their light spells going during exploration.

 

[James Gasik]

The discussion about issues with Guidance is entirely out-of-combat (in combat, action economy implies a cost to cast the cantrip, whereas out-of-combat it is completely free of cost), and out-of-combat the rules for "Working Together" still very much leave the DM full control over whether someone can help another.

But then again, the problem with Guidance is that some DMs have seen players cast this cantrip every single time someone is making a check, resulting in a cantrip which is far more useful than any other. If players would declare "work together!" every single time something is going on in the game, and the DM was forced to allow it, you would have the same problem.




I could see how that could also be used to prevent Guidance to work on almost every single reactive ability check. But I am not convinced because it says "of its choice" not "you choose", which means it is not referring to the fact that you have chosen to make the check, but rather than the target doesn't have to use Guidance of the first check it has to do but can choose to keep it for later.



At the root of the matter, is the fact that Guidance and Working Together were added to the rules under the designers' assumptions that they would be used occasionally, relying on the good faith of the players. It is only when a player realizes that by the RAW they can try to abuse these options, that they become a real problem. Some DMs are simply try to anticipate the problem.


Right, if you want to cast the spell once every minute, I will then call you to make a perception check against traps every 5ft you move, everywhere and all the time. Do you see what is the annoyance here?

Absolutely, but like I said, if you tell players they can't use it as needed, then it comes down to either don't bother with it, or just keep it going constantly (I'm going to use the light spell as an example of cantrips that are pretty much assumed to be cast multiple times during exploration without much fuss).

 

[Oofta]

What? You get 10 actions a minute. It's not like it's hard to keep casting a cantrip ever 10th round. And yeah, as was pointed out, you can't actually hit everyone with it, but you could keep it going on your best spotter/trap finder/what have you. I mean, what else are you doing as the party creeps along exploring?

I've played at a lot of tables, and I've never once seen anyone give the Wizard havoc for keeping their light spells going during exploration.

You only talk in turns of actions in combat which normally takes a minute or two. It's a judgement call of course, but casting a spell every minute for hours on end would not only be annoying but also incredibly disruptive. It's completely different than casting something once per hour. Could you imagine texting someone 60 times in one hour all day long?

Or at least that's what I would tell a player in my game if they tried it. Do what makes sense to you.

 

[James Gasik]

You only talk in turns of actions in combat which normally takes a minute or two. It's a judgement call of course, but casting a spell every minute for hours on end would not only be annoying but also incredibly disruptive. It's completely different than casting something once per hour. Could you imagine texting someone 60 times in one hour all day long?

Or at least that's what I would tell a player in my game if they tried it. Do what makes sense to you.

I mean I don't text people like that, but I've seen some members of that younger generation go nuts about maintaining their "streak"...

And how is using guidance in this fashion any different than someone lighting the party's way with dancing lights?

 

[Oofta]

I mean I don't text people like that, but I've seen some members of that younger generation go nuts about maintaining their "streak"...

And how is using guidance in this fashion any different than someone lighting the party's way with dancing lights?

I wouldn't allow dancing lights for hours on end either. As much as some people text a lot, I assume very few text over 700 times in one day. Keep it up for a few minutes? Sure. All day for at least 12 hours if not 16? Nope.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Could you imagine texting someone 60 times in one hour all day long?

my ex girlfriend at least FELT like that was what she was doing... including when in the same room as me when my phone was closer to her then me...

Or at least that's what I would tell a player in my game if they tried it. Do what makes sense to you.

 

[Mannahnin]

What? You get 10 actions a minute. It's not like it's hard to keep casting a cantrip ever 10th round. And yeah, as was pointed out, you can't actually hit everyone with it, but you could keep it going on your best spotter/trap finder/what have you. I mean, what else are you doing as the party creeps along exploring?

I've played at a lot of tables, and I've never once seen anyone give the Wizard havoc for keeping their light spells going during exploration.

You get 10 actions a minute in combat. You are not assumed to be keeping up that pace of action all day every day.

You don't see a categorical difference between re-casting a non-concentration spell once an hour, and re-casting a concentration spell once every minute? Even with it only being one person, rather than the whole party, that's a lot of monotonous effort.

You're creeping quietly down the dungeon hall, and every minute the Cleric pronounces another prayer aloud on the Ranger or Rogue, with no particular task being focused on?

I'm trying to picture this, but it fails the verisimilitude test for me.

 

[James Gasik]

You get 10 actions a minute in combat. You are not assumed to be keeping up that pace of action all day every day.

You don't see a categorical difference between re-casting a non-concentration spell once an hour, and re-casting a concentration spell once every minute? Even with it only being one person, rather than the whole party, that's a lot of monotonous effort.

You're creeping quietly down the dungeon hall, and every minute the Cleric pronounces another prayer aloud on the Ranger or Rogue, with no particular task being focused on?

I'm trying to picture this, but it fails the verisimilitude test for me.

Well ok, I mean, I'm really just used to it because, again, thanks to spells like dancing lights that I figure players are constantly refreshing in order to provide a constant light source for the party.

And Guidance doesn't require a set task, you can just throw it on your party Ranger to cover spotting enemies or whatnot.

Not really sure why 5e decided to switch from +1 to +1d4, but by making it an at-will cantrip, it seems to me the intent was for it to be used quite often.

But then we could ask why they decided to make cantrips at will in the first place, instead of 6/day like in 3e.

The only thing that I can think of is "because Pathfinder did it".

Also, if you have a Fighter, Cleric, or Paladin in your party, they're probably wearing heavier armor anyways, so what "creeping quietly down the hall" is happening here?

 

[Li Shenron]

Absolutely, but like I said, if you tell players they can't use it as needed, then it comes down to either don't bother with it, or just keep it going constantly (I'm going to use the light spell as an example of cantrips that are pretty much assumed to be cast multiple times during exploration without much fuss).

You don't have to choose an extreme...

I am not telling players they can't use it, but I have countermeasures in place (as per my first post) so that even if a player wants us to assume their PC is constantly casting it every 59 seconds, it is still not much more useful than other cantrips.

 

[Mannahnin]

Well ok, I mean, I'm really just used to it because, again, thanks to spells like dancing lights that I figure players are constantly refreshing in order to provide a constant light source for the party.

Some of this is certainly experience-based. I never see Dancing Lights used that way. Not for extended periods, at least. Light or actual lanterns or torches and so forth. The folks I play with tend to conceptualize that it would be annoying and tiresome for their character to keep casting the same thing every minute, so it's not something that would be done outside of extraordinary circumstances.

And Guidance doesn't require a set task, you can just throw it on your party Ranger to cover spotting enemies or whatnot.

Some of this is definitely a difference in how we're conceptualizing the fiction.

I agree that the spell description is broad enough to cover "Pelor, please guide my friend here for the next minute" without specifying a particular task, but if we're dealing with a period of a minute, I think it's clear that you're doing it for a specific reason, and with a specific prompt.

There's no reasonable way I, as a Cleric, am just constantly repeating prayers for someone's generalized success. I'd be hoarse and my deity might be annoyed. It could be "Please guide her hands with this lock", or it could be "Please guide his eyes and ears as he peeks his head over this ridge looking for enemies."

Also, if you have a Fighter, Cleric, or Paladin in your party, they're probably wearing heavier armor anyways, so what "creeping quietly down the hall" is happening here?

You can still move quietly in heavy armor. It's almost impossible to move silently, but there's a world of difference between being heard 10' -20' away, say walking softly, vs. 50' or 100' away, running pell-mell down the flagstoned hallway in your hard boots and mail chausses.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Well ok, I mean, I'm really just used to it because, again, thanks to spells like dancing lights that I figure players are constantly refreshing in order to provide a constant light source for the party.

yeah once PCs have at will abilities I assume they just use them alot

And Guidance doesn't require a set task, you can just throw it on your party Ranger to cover spotting enemies or whatnot.

yeah if the ranger or rogue (or illusionist) is going scouting give him a guidence for the 1st minute.

Not really sure why 5e decided to switch from +1 to +1d4, but by making it an at-will cantrip, it seems to me the intent was for it to be used quite often.

my bet is at one point it was advantage, and during playtest someone said "Thats just the help action" and they changed it up... the funny part is it is prety much a minor Bless and I don't get HOW that made it through playtest,

But then we could ask why they decided to make cantrips at will in the first place, instead of 6/day like in 3e.

I think that is simple. they wanted to kill the idea that a mystic character NEEDs a weapon. They don't want you to feel you HAVE to be the short sword crossbow wielding mage (but you CAN be. if you have a good dex)

The only thing that I can think of is "because Pathfinder did it".

no because 4e presided pathfinder... if anything pathfinder took 4e at wills

those not in the know: in 4e wizards got 4 cantrips that were at will utilities abilities and there 2 attack spells that were at will often got grouped in with them. In the PHB they only had 4 cantrips and 4 of the attack at will spells to choose from so all wizards had the same 4 cantrips and 2 of 4 attack ones... as more books came out more options came about.

Also, if you have a Fighter, Cleric, or Paladin in your party, they're probably wearing heavier armor anyways, so what "creeping quietly down the hall" is happening here?

I mean... we have a going joke of paladins yelling "I don't know how to stealth" at the top of there lungs...

 

[Mannahnin]

I think that is simple. they wanted to kill the idea that a mystic character NEEDs a weapon. They don't want you to feel you HAVE to be the short sword crossbow wielding mage (but you CAN be. if you have a good dex)

Yup.

 

[James Gasik]

Some of this is certainly experience-based. I never see Dancing Lights used that way. Not for extended periods, at least. Light or actual lanterns or torches and so forth. The folks I play with tend to conceptualize that it would be annoying and tiresome for their character to keep casting the same thing every minute, so it's not something that would be done outside of extraordinary circumstances.


Some of this is definitely a difference in how we're conceptualizing the fiction.

I agree that the spell description is broad enough to cover "Pelor, please guide my friend here for the next minute" without specifying a particular task, but if we're dealing with a period of a minute, I think it's clear that you're doing it for a specific reason, and with a specific prompt.

There's no reasonable way I, as a Cleric, am just constantly repeating prayers for someone's generalized success. I'd be hoarse and my deity might be annoyed. It could be "Please guide her hands with this lock", or it could be "Please guide his eyes and ears as he peeks his head over this ridge looking for enemies."


You can still move quietly in heavy armor. It's almost impossible to move silently, but there's a world of difference between being heard 10' -20' away, say walking softly, vs. 50' or 100' away, running pell-mell down the flagstoned hallway in your hard boots and mail chausses.

Well that's been my experience with playing in 5e, the DM calls for a group Stealth check, and the one guy with disadvantage, no proficiency, and mediocre Dex always tanks the group, making you wonder why the DM bothered to ask in the first place...

As in all things, YMMV.

 

[James Gasik]

Yup.

Attack cantrips I support, I like being able to shoot a firebolt instead of the old "throw darts! that's what we did in the old days! and we liked it!" bit. But it seems a lot of people don't really care for all cantrips being at will.

Heck, I lost count of the amounts of complaining I would hear on Paizo's forums about detect magic being at-will. Did that not happen in 5e? I wasn't paying much attention after I saw the final product and wondered what happened to the D&D Next game I had playtested for two years...

 

[Li Shenron]

Well ok, I mean, I'm really just used to it because, again, thanks to spells like dancing lights that I figure players are constantly refreshing in order to provide a constant light source for the party.

And Guidance doesn't require a set task, you can just throw it on your party Ranger to cover spotting enemies or whatnot.

Not really sure why 5e decided to switch from +1 to +1d4, but by making it an at-will cantrip, it seems to me the intent was for it to be used quite often.

But then we could ask why they decided to make cantrips at will in the first place, instead of 6/day like in 3e.

The only thing that I can think of is "because Pathfinder did it".

Also, if you have a Fighter, Cleric, or Paladin in your party, they're probably wearing heavier armor anyways, so what "creeping quietly down the hall" is happening here?

Look... the short answer is that Guidance is simply a design mistake.

Every time the spamming problem was brought up to Mearls and Crawford since 2014, they always invariably answered it's not a real problem because they never see people spamming it.

So the intended rule is... do not spam it. If you spam it, you break the RAI. Cantrips are at will because you're not supposed to worry about running out of charges, NOT because they are meant to grant always-active benefits.

If you spam Guidance every minute, you are exploiting the RAW of a design mistake. That the designers refuse to acknowledge it was a mistake, doesn't make the mistake go away, but at least they've been clear about the intended use.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Heck, I lost count of the amounts of complaining I would hear on Paizo's forums about detect magic being at-will.

funny because I think detect magic SHOULD be a cantrip for wizards and sorcerers. (Let Warlocks still burn a mini feat invocation for it)

 

[Mannahnin]

Well that's been my experience with playing in 5e, the DM calls for a group Stealth check, and the one guy with disadvantage, no proficiency, and mediocre Dex always tanks the group, making you wonder why the DM bothered to ask in the first place...

Sure, sure. But that's the mechanics. And those are mechanics some folks address by doing group Stealth checks rather than just saying "everyone has to make a Stealth check", which mathematically almost guarantees that someone's going to flub it, even if you don't have someone with low Dex rolling at Disadvantage.

I'm coming at this from an approach of using the rules to serve the fiction, bear in mind.

Attack cantrips I support, I like being able to shoot a firebolt instead of the old "throw darts! that's what we did in the old days! and we liked it!" bit. But it seems a lot of people don't really care for all cantrips being at will.

I go back and forth on this.

I definitely sympathize with players who want their magic person to be magical every round as opposed to shooting a crossbow or throwing a dagger.

For me it's setting-dependent. 5E with attack cantrips is giving us characters who have an infinite supply of magic at their fingertips. When I run 5 Torches Deep, OTOH, casters typically shoot bows for their "at-will" attack. There are no attack cantrips and non-cantrip spells require rolls to cast, with risks. Each system is presenting a setting with different assumptions and feel.

Heck, I lost count of the amounts of complaining I would hear on Paizo's forums about detect magic being at-will. Did that not happen in 5e? I wasn't paying much attention after I saw the final product and wondered what happened to the D&D Next game I had playtested for two years...

I can't remember. 5E has Detect Magic as a 1st level spell. You can cast it as a Ritual, but that takes 10 minutes, so that's only an option when there's little time pressure.

 

[James Gasik]

Sure, sure. But that's the mechanics. And those are mechanics some folks address by doing group Stealth checks rather than just saying "everyone has to make a Stealth check", which mathematically almost guarantees that someone's going to flub it, even if you don't have someone with low Dex rolling at Disadvantage.

I'm coming at this from an approach of using the rules to serve the fiction, bear in mind.


I go back and forth on this.

I definitely sympathize with players who want their magic person to be magical every round as opposed to shooting a crossbow or throwing a dagger.

For me it's setting-dependent. 5E with attack cantrips is giving us characters who have an infinite supply of magic at their fingertips. When I run 5 Torches Deep, OTOH, casters typically shoot bows for their "at-will" attack. There are no attack cantrips and non-cantrip spells require rolls to cast, with risks. Each system is presenting a setting with different assumptions and feel.


I can't remember. 5E has Detect Magic as a 1st level spell. You can cast it as a Ritual, but that takes 10 minutes, so that's only an option when there's little time pressure.

I guess that would make a difference for detect magic.

I never considered that Guidance, it's very existence, is actually a flaw in the game. I mean, people tell me all the time that (hyperbole) 5e is the greatest RPG that has ever existed because of how popular it is, so nothing about it can be wrong! (/hyperbole).

I mean, I thought Bless seemed problematic and weird granting a d4 instead of +1 (after the dev team went on about getting rid of tracking minor bonuses and lauding the amazing advantage/disadvantage rule), but when I finally asked the community about it, the answers I got were "it's not great because concentration" and "the bonus doesn't really matter, because you were probably going to hit anyway".

That Guidance is a stickler for me confused me a little bit. Players can already Help each other, after all. And ability check DC's shouldn't really be super high anyways, given that the range of bonuses is typically -1 to +11. Checks in excess of DC 19-20 seem kind of heinous.*

*Not going to talk about Expertise here, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

But apparently the range of DC's is wider in most games than what I would assume, and that checks with a good chance of failure is the norm, which is where things like everyone Helping each other and Guidance stick out like proud nails.

I've heard horror stories about DM's insisting the adventure grinds to a halt while they force the group to climb a steep cliff, eating up game time and risking the adventure grinding to a halt if the Str 10 Wizard rolls a 4 and plummets to his doom (which then leads to gripes when said Wizard starts using magic to bypass the challenge while the Fighter grumbles about making 13 consecutive Strength check), but I figured those were outliers, and in reality, characters are asked to make checks only when it's important.

I mean, if you want the players to get to the Tomb of Ankharis across the Desert of Bleached White Bones, you're not going to lock it behind DC 15 Survival checks, right?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I mean, if you want the players to get to the Tomb of Ankharis across the Desert of Bleached White Bones, you're not going to lock it behind DC 15 Survival checks, right?

I have seen DMs be there own worst enemy... I have seen DMs lock vital clues behind DC 25 locks when the highest level lock pick has a +7... then get mad when they can't get through and they just left.

I played a game where there was this (flavor text) 'unbeatable' guardian protecting the ilsand the DM spent (not an exageration) more then a year of mapping planning... and we got there once, fought for a round or two fell back... made a plan buffed (this was 3.0) and headed back after round 3 fell back and said it wasn't worth it and left. (we made that DM cry)

I ran (so no one to blame but myself) a game concept in EVERY edition except 4e. I had a magic item called the S.T.E.P. (space time energy platform) that is an artifact in this world... it is vital to the story of the background. However every single campaign that ended (badly) ending started with a PC getting access to said artifact. You would think I would just not put it in play... but I am dumb.

oh wait the waterfall... a DM had this riddle to lead to (his entire planed campaign) a lost elven homeland... but no PC could figure it out. "The land and sea move as one at the four sided triangle" (i may be missremembering a bit of that it was 1997) we drew triangles we looked at the maps he drew... we begged for a clue. One player drew a triangle wrote 1 2 and 3 on the sides and said "The other side of the paper?" that campaign never started. We made characters did the first little get''ing the adventures togather' thing and then stalled.