Spike TV 2005 Video Game Awards

[Jeremy]

You've got the wrong avatar to be supreme dictator of the world. You want the other one.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Awwww, but I'd be a benevolent ruler.

 

[DonTadow]

I'm saying that my acid test is different. For example, in Ninja Gaidan, you don't get attributes to distribute, but you do get equipment and learn new techniques. But, the thing that, to me, makes it an action game is that your abilities are what determines success. That's why I've never considered Zelda games to be RPGs, and I can't see how its any more RPG than Ninja Gaidan. This is, basically, the same reason I have trouble seeing X-Men Legends as an RPG, since my twitch gaming skills seem to be the key factor to winning.

If the way you describe it is the official way, then I'll just have to cocede and accept that I'm just some guy who likes to be a rebel. At least, until I'm supreme dictator of the world and can make people agree with me or the head of every gaming magazine and can spin the media how I want. Both of those are probably equally as likely to occur.

Whatever happened to the adventure genre. When I was growing up, games like Zelda, wizards and warriors and other games that had RPG elements but were heavy on action were labeled adventure games.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think action and adventure somewhere merged into just "action/adventure" games. Which might help to explain why I can't think of Zelda as an RPG at all. Actually, my friends and I used to call Zelda an "epic adventure" game or just "epic" for short. To us, that was its genre.

 

[WizarDru]

I think action and adventure somewhere merged into just "action/adventure" games. Which might help to explain why I can't think of Zelda as an RPG at all. Actually, my friends and I used to call Zelda an "epic adventure" game or just "epic" for short. To us, that was its genre.

Zelda is not an RPG by any stretch. Link never changes, merely his equipment....and the player has no input into Link's abilities or equipment, other than choosing to purchase the maximum number of potions, bombs or what have you. In an action-RPG like the Diablo or X-men Legend series (or the D&D X-box game), you have choices that affect your character's performance. Yes, twitch gaming can and often IS involved....but the manner of that gaming is chosen by the player. Do you choose to increase Wolverine's healing factor or his damage potential? Do you give Storm the ability to fly longer during combat, or the ability to deflect damage or hurl lightning bolts? Which characters do you use for a particular mission? And so forth. Some Zeldas offer more freedom than others (and side-quests)...but ultimately, you still need to follow the core adventure script. In Wind Waker, you can explore the whole ocean for weeks...but until you rescue your sister, you will not have the equipment to proceed to certain areas of the game. Period.

To me, the distinction is not whether or not you level, but whether or not the act of leveling provides you with meaningful choices for development. Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction, for example, isn't an RPG. I unlock new moves throughout the game...but the Hulk's powers really don't change and no specific move is integral to solve a particular mission (though some are clearly more helpful than others in specific situations). Castlevania is not an RPG, in it's many forms, because even though you level up throughout the game, most of the effects are purely transparent, uncontrolled and not terribly meaningful to the player. Compare that with Final Fantasy or Diablo, where you choose a particular upgrade path to the exclusion of another. Choose to enhance one ability, materia or skill path, you do so to the potential detriment of another. My Diablo II necromancer plays differently than my friend's, because he chose to emphasize exploding corpses while I chose to emphasize empowering my undead servants, for example.

Whatever happened to the adventure genre. When I was growing up, games like Zelda, wizards and warriors and other games that had RPG elements but were heavy on action were labeled adventure games.

It died an ignoble death, unfortunately. Well, not really. The issue is that the lines blurred, and pure adventure games disappeared. For example, the brilliant Beyond Good & Evil...is it a racing game, stealth FPS, adventure game, RPG, or action game? Answer: Yes. It's all of those things. Many modern games now incorporate multiple elements, blurring the lines between genres.

That said, there are adventure games being made...just under the radar. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney for the Nintendo DS is really just an adventure game with a gimmick...but it's a GREAT gimmick. One of the best games I've played all year, in fact. And in a year with Resident Evil 4 and God of War...that's saying something.

 

[DonTadow]

Zelda is not an RPG by any stretch. Link never changes, merely his equipment....and the player has no input into Link's abilities or equipment, other than choosing to purchase the maximum number of potions, bombs or what have you. In an action-RPG like the Diablo or X-men Legend series (or the D&D X-box game), you have choices that affect your character's performance. Yes, twitch gaming can and often IS involved....but the manner of that gaming is chosen by the player. Do you choose to increase Wolverine's healing factor or his damage potential? Do you give Storm the ability to fly longer during combat, or the ability to deflect damage or hurl lightning bolts? Which characters do you use for a particular mission? And so forth. Some Zeldas offer more freedom than others (and side-quests)...but ultimately, you still need to follow the core adventure script. In Wind Waker, you can explore the whole ocean for weeks...but until you rescue your sister, you will not have the equipment to proceed to certain areas of the game. Period.

To me, the distinction is not whether or not you level, but whether or not the act of leveling provides you with meaningful choices for development. Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction, for example, isn't an RPG. I unlock new moves throughout the game...but the Hulk's powers really don't change and no specific move is integral to solve a particular mission (though some are clearly more helpful than others in specific situations). Castlevania is not an RPG, in it's many forms, because even though you level up throughout the game, most of the effects are purely transparent, uncontrolled and not terribly meaningful to the player. Compare that with Final Fantasy or Diablo, where you choose a particular upgrade path to the exclusion of another. Choose to enhance one ability, materia or skill path, you do so to the potential detriment of another. My Diablo II necromancer plays differently than my friend's, because he chose to emphasize exploding corpses while I chose to emphasize empowering my undead servants, for example.



It died an ignoble death, unfortunately. Well, not really. The issue is that the lines blurred, and pure adventure games disappeared. For example, the brilliant Beyond Good & Evil...is it a racing game, stealth FPS, adventure game, RPG, or action game? Answer: Yes. It's all of those things. Many modern games now incorporate multiple elements, blurring the lines between genres.

That said, there are adventure games being made...just under the radar. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney for the Nintendo DS is really just an adventure game with a gimmick...but it's a GREAT gimmick. One of the best games I've played all year, in fact. And in a year with Resident Evil 4 and God of War...that's saying something.

I don't think adventures died, I think marketing execs got an idea and murdered it. They figured that saying "action" adventure or "action" RPG would drive up sales instead of saying "adventure" and they were right. Zelda does change, he gets more and more hearts as he goes up in levels. He also gets better swords and arrows, which play out for a stronger character. These are RPG elements. But the key rpg element to zelda is exploration. However, he fought in real time which is why the game was labeled an adventure. Adventure used to be any game that blended the elements of action and rpg, but the fighting is always in real time. Like Xmen and Resident Evil are adventures, not action rpgs as they don't posess enough of either genre to really earn the name. They are hybrids, and should be labeled adventures. Castlevania was an action game when it first came out but later sequals delved it into more of an adventure exploration type game. It's a marketing thing why the adventure label for games disappeared.

RPGs have a distinct flavor. They are usually turn based in some way and the action is rarely ever in real time. There are some games (ala the new final fantasy and Magna Carta) that bost real time, but honestly, they are still time based fighting. I think thats the biggest distinction when it comes to rpgs. There also has to be some level of exploration that opens up the world.

 

[Dark Jezter]

RPGs have a distinct flavor. They are usually turn based in some way and the action is rarely ever in real time. There are some games (ala the new final fantasy and Magna Carta) that bost real time, but honestly, they are still time based fighting. I think thats the biggest distinction when it comes to rpgs. There also has to be some level of exploration that opens up the world.

That's not really true anymore. Sure, when CRPGs first came out they were almost exclusively turn-based (at least in combat), but over the last decade, CRPGs with real-time combat have become more and more popular while turn-based combat is getting more and more uncommon. Games like Baldur's Gate and Knights of the Old Republic feature a sort of hybrid combat system (it's real-time combat, but you can pause and assign new actions to the characters under your control), while CRPGs like Diablo and Jade Empire have gone entirely real-time. The only truly turn-based CRPG for the PC from the last few years I can recall at the moment is The Temple of Elemental Evil.

Turn-based RPGs for the consoles seem to still be popular, however. It seems that in Japan there is more of a market for turn-based RPGs.

 

[DonTadow]

That's not really true anymore. Sure, when CRPGs first came out they were almost exclusively turn-based (at least in combat), but over the last decade, CRPGs with real-time combat have become more and more popular while turn-based combat is getting more and more uncommon. Games like Baldur's Gate and Knights of the Old Republic feature a sort of hybrid combat system (it's real-time combat, but you can pause and assign new actions to the characters under your control), while CRPGs like Diablo and Jade Empire have gone entirely real-time. The only truly turn-based CRPG for the PC from the last few years I can recall at the moment is The Temple of Elemental Evil.

Turn-based RPGs for the consoles seem to still be popular, however. It seems that in Japan there is more of a market for turn-based RPGs.

But again, I think thats where marketing has interjected. Diablo is at best an adventure or action adventure as opposed to an RPG... actually its more of a very limited mmorpg. With mmorpg the rpg's are there strictly for flavor for the genre.

Baldur's gate and knights of the republic were both turn based, in that you were timed when your creature does something. This is innovations to the time based system, but its still time based. The new final fantsy uses asimpliar system in which you can move around and attack and stuff but your moves are still time based, meaning you can't attack when the button is pressed, only when your next turn comes up, the same as Knights of the Republic. Jade Empire has a similar technqiue as far as your attacks go. What Bioware has done a good job of is make innovations in the time-based mechanism, but in the end when i hit x my sword don't always swing at that very moment.

There hasn't been one rpg that has come out that hasn't been turn based. From Elders Scroll, to Dungeon Siege to Shin Megasi.

 

[Arnwyn]

how many people do you know who picked up Atelier Iris, Radiata Stories or Suikoden IV?

Me. And all three of those blew away most games on the RPG nominee list. (IMO, of course. I know JRPGs aren't particularly popular at ENWorld...)

In any case, I think the public (and developers, and companies) would be better served if award ceremonies had separate categories for RPGs and so-called "action RPGs".

 

[Pants]

Morrowind is NOT turn-based. At all. Not even close.