Spring Attack doubt

[Egres]

It's similar to the 3E version of the 3.5 Withdraw action.

If all you do in a round is move, your first square is not threatened.

So I'm adjacent to a 3E greataxe-wielding orc. I take a move action to move 30' directly away from him. If that's all I do - or if I move another 30' - I didn't provoke an AoO. If, however, I then sheathe my sword, I did provoke an AoO.

The only way to resolve this is to accept that certain choices earlier in the round can restrict certain options later in the round.

Just as if I shoot my bow at no penalty, I cannot then decide to use my Rapid Shot feat for a second shot; so, in 3E, if I move away from the orc and claim no AoO, I cannot then decide to take an action other than movement.

"I move away from the orc..."
"In such a way as to avoid an AoO?"
"Of course! I move thirty feet to the north..."
"Twenty feet from the orc, you trigger a pit trap... failed save, you fall."
"I cast Feather Fall!"
"You can't. You've voluntarily surrendered the right to take any actions other than movement in this round."

Similarly, when declaring the use of the Spring Attack feat, one must have a designated defender to avoid a paradox, because making the decision later could alter previous events.

-Hyp.

So, Hyp confirms my impression: the SA feat can lead to rules paradoxes.

Thanks to all of you.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, Hyp confirms my impression: the SA feat can lead to rules paradoxes.

Not if you require a designated defender.

"I Spring in towards the ogres..."
"Ogre B takes an AoO."
"No, I'm using Spring Attack!"
"Oh, okay. Ogre A takes an AoO."
"No, I'm using Spring Attack!"
"Well, which one are you attacking?"
"I haven't decided yet."
"Sweet! Ogre A and Ogre B take an AoO."

I mean, Spring Attack requires you to move after the attack as well.

"I Spring in towards the lone ogre..."
"He takes an AoO."
"No, I'm using Spring Attack!"
"Oh, right. Go on, then."
"Natural 1... I miss. Oh well, that's the end of my turn."
"You need to move after the attack."
"Nah, I changed my mind."

It doesn't work that way - you don't get the option to change your mind once you've benefitted earlier in the round.

When both ogres attempt to make an AoO, you can deny one of them via Spring Attack... but once you've made that decision, you no longer have the option to attack any other opponent. Even if that ogre gets killed off by a readied action, that's tough - you benefitted from using an action that requires you to attack him and only him, therefore you are obliged to attack him and only him.

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

In other words, for Frank and Souljourner you can opt to choose your target after your move, while your post makes me think that you don't agree with this PoV...

...if you actually take the Spring Attack benefit.

 

[Goolpsy]

Why would u even spring attack and attack a monster with low HP thats about to get Sneak attacked?
Instead you could just Appoint Ogre B as your target and attack it from a position flanking A, thne move away...

 

[DanMcS]

Why would u even spring attack and attack a monster with low HP thats about to get Sneak attacked?

It was an example. The point was, if you are spring attacking a target and in the middle of your spring, but before your attack, it ceases to be a valid or worthwhile target, what happens? You don't always know what will happen in the middle of your action.

For instance, they enemy ogre mage has a readied action to fireball you if you get within a certain distance of him. You spring in, his action triggers, he chooses to lay it down in such a way that it also takes out the ogre you had been springing towards. Anything could happen, really, don't get hung up on the specific "sneak attacked monster" example.

 

[Egres]

It doesn't work that way - you don't get the option to change your mind once you've benefitted earlier in the round.

I could agree, but...what's the source of your statement, other than common sense?

 

[dcollins]

I could agree, but...what's the source of your statement, other than common sense?

There's a difference between "logic" and "common sense". Your choices for resolving this matter (the "can you pick your target after using Spring Attack?" question) are:

(1) "Yes" --> results in a paradox.
(2) "No".

Pick one.

 

[Goolpsy]

I must say that its unlikely to happen that the target died before u get to him.
Exampls are always good, but just as a examples come.. things to descrupt them comes too.

If the ogre mage readied an action the DM should describe it some way.. And personally i would attack him first, but if we asume that i don't se him as a threat the situation might occur.

By strick rules you cant change target.

Personally

I play it differently.. weather or not its a house-rule or a different interpretation i don't know. Monsters generally don't get AOO when you aproach them to attack. So the way i normally play it, is that the monster you THEN choose to attack won't get an AOO on you when leaving its space.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I could agree, but...what's the source of your statement, other than common sense?

Because if a benefit only comes under a condition, and that condition is one that must be fulfilled after the benefit, then if you accept the benefit, you have no choice as to whether or not you fulfil the condition.

If I want to deal skirmish damage, then I have to move at least ten feat before I attack.

If I want to avoid an AoO from the ogre via Spring Attack, then I have to attack him after I avoid the AoO.

The order of events is different, but the if-then dependency doesn't change.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I could agree, but...what's the source of your statement, other than common sense?

The source is also a lack of a statement that allows you to change your actions once you've embarked upon them. For instance, you cast fireball only to have someone counterspell it with another fireball. Can you suddenly change it to lightning bolt and hope that your opponent doesn't have that, thereby negating his counterspell attempt (assuming no dispel magic either)? No, of course not, but there's no rule saying that you cannot change your action once you choose it and start it (that I recall anyway).