Spring attack question

[tburdett]

Taking a 5' step and moving 5' are different. You can't move 5' and pretend like it's a 5' step, and (if things go the way you want) decide to continue moving with spring attack. In the case above, unless you specifically stated that are taking a 5' step (not just moving 5'), you will get 3 AoO's against you before you get to finish your action. At least, that's how I thought it was supposed to work.

Actually, taking a 5' step and moving 5' feet are NOT different.

It is what you do AFTER you take that initial 5' of movement that matters. They explain movement on page 117 in the PHB.

If you move 5', make an attack, and then declare that you are using Spring Attack to move away, you will retroactively provoke attacks of opportunity from anyone who is entitled to them. Not a great system for 'suspension of disbelief', but that's the rule.

If you move 5', make an attack, and then decide to do nothing else, no attacks of opportunity.

If you move 5', make an attack, and then decide to turn it into a full attack action, no attacks of opportunity.

Anybody have a FAQ entry, rule, or Sage email that contradicts this?

 

[jontherev]

Actually, taking a 5' step and moving 5' feet are NOT different.

It is what you do AFTER you take that initial 5' of movement that matters. They explain movement on page 117 in the PHB.

If you move 5', make an attack, and then declare that you are using Spring Attack to move away, you will retroactively provoke attacks of opportunity from anyone who is entitled to them. Not a great system for 'suspension of disbelief', but that's the rule.

If you move 5', make an attack, and then decide to do nothing else, no attacks of opportunity.

If you move 5', make an attack, and then decide to turn it into a full attack action, no attacks of opportunity.

Anybody have a FAQ entry, rule, or Sage email that contradicts this?

I disagree. Taking a 5' step means you are being careful and avoiding AoO's. As soon as you move, you will get AoO's from 3 foes in the original example, unless you first declared your movement to be a 5' step. Period. You cannot decide whether your 5' step was a move or an actual 5' step AFTER you have moved. This must be decided before you move at all. For, if you take a 5' step, your movement is gone for the remainder of the round (unless hasted)...that's why you don't get any AoO's for the movement, because you are being careful. Just moving 5' will get you 3 AoO's, but if you have spring attack (and/or, if you have Haste), it leaves the door open for more movement.

Note, that this is not usually a problem, because most pc's don't have Spring Attack...so a 5' step WOULD be that same as a 5' move in most cases. It becomes important to distinguish between the 2 moves when Spring Attack or Haste is involved. You only get one 5' step/round. This is how I understand the rules to work. If you play as you do, then problems will inevitably occur.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Hey, I wasn't commenting on whether the rules specify that actions must be declared. Just saying that the DM might appreciate knowing what you're doing, and has every right to ask you to tell him or her when you begin your turn.

Even if its a card reading I AM USING SPRING ATTACK...

 

[MThibault]

I think that a moderate approach would be to insist that it is the player's responsibility to define what action they are taking before it has a direct game-effect. You don't roll the d20 then declare that you are attacking. Likewise, if there are no possible Attacks of Opportunity, the player doesn't need to declare spring attack, and can chose to continue moving after the attack. Whenever there might be an AoO due to the movement before the attack, the spring attack must be decared at that time. If it isn't declared before the dice are rolled it doesn't happen.

I suppose you could switch this around and make Spring Attack the default, but that means that unless a different action is specifically stated, the player will be pigeonholed into a spring attack as soon as they avoid an AoO. They can't retroactively change their standard action from a single melee attack to a ranged attack or a MEA once that AoO has been avoided.

So even though you are not required to declare every actions all the time, if you don't declare a special action before the immediate and direct effects are achieved, then a predetermined default kicks in.

It sounds much more complicated on paper than in practice.

 

[Magic Rub]

Hey, I wasn't commenting on whether the rules specify that actions must be declared. Just saying that the DM might appreciate knowing what you're doing, and has every right to ask you to tell him or her when you begin your turn.

Even if its a card reading I AM USING SPRING ATTACK...

I agree.

It takes no time to point to each of your players before the round & find out what they are doing. It helps the flow & stops arguments.

 

[tburdett]

I disagree. Taking a 5' step means you are being careful and avoiding AoO's. As soon as you move, you will get AoO's from 3 foes in the original example, unless you first declared your movement to be a 5' step. Period. You cannot decide whether your 5' step was a move or an actual 5' step AFTER you have moved. This must be decided before you move at all. For, if you take a 5' step, your movement is gone for the remainder of the round (unless hasted)...that's why you don't get any AoO's for the movement, because you are being careful. Just moving 5' will get you 3 AoO's, but if you have spring attack (and/or, if you have Haste), it leaves the door open for more movement.

Note, that this is not usually a problem, because most pc's don't have Spring Attack...so a 5' step WOULD be that same as a 5' move in most cases. It becomes important to distinguish between the 2 moves when Spring Attack or Haste is involved. You only get one 5' step/round. This is how I understand the rules to work. If you play as you do, then problems will inevitably occur.

You can do whatever you want, but what you are doing is not consistent with the rules in the PHB.

You prove your own faulty logic in your second paragraph.

Moving ONLY 5' during your round is ALWAYS the same as a 5' step.

If you move MORE than 5' at any time during your round, by Spring Attack, Haste, or whatever, you have not moved only 5' (or taken a 5' step) and are subject to attacks of opportunity from any source that would have normally been allowed to take them.

This may result in situations where you have to retroactively award attacks of opportunity to creatures that the player has moved away from, if the players actions warrant that.

Like I said before, this may work against 'suspension of disbelief', but it is consistent with, and supported by, the rules.

This does not give the players a way to avoid attacks of opportunity.

Read my reply and let me know what extra benefit that you think a player would get under this system?

 

[prankster]

But what about the poor dm?

If you move MORE than 5' at any time during your round, by Spring Attack, Haste, or whatever, you have not moved only 5' (or taken a 5' step) and are subject to attacks of opportunity from any source that would have normally been allowed to take them.

This may result in situations where you have to retroactively award attacks of opportunity to creatures that the player has moved away from, if the players actions warrant that.
<snip>
This does not give the players a way to avoid attacks of opportunity.

Read my reply and let me know what extra benefit that you think a player would get under this system?

As a DM I think the problem isn't so much that the player gets to cheat the system, but instead that it makes the DMs life a pain in the ass.

O E >>> OME
M

ME: I move 5 feet between the Ogre I'm attacking (O) and the other random enemy (E).

DM: Okay, it's a five foot step, there's no AOO.

ME: I strike the Ogre with my powerful palm strike (tm) for 14 points of damage, and run away behind the paladin.

DM: Okay, well that retro-invokes the AOO, which hit you for 17 points, bringing you to -7, so that moves..umm you here, subtract 7, add 14 to my ogre.. Which ogre was that again....(expunged DM profanity).

A lot of work vs. the player saying "I spring attack." Besides the player should remember what he's doing fer chrissakes, and there are plenty of times when she wouldn't want the secondary move (to perform a full round action at close range next roundd, etc..).

What about requiring a min. 10 foot move in for spring attack?

 

[tburdett]

Forcing the character to move both before and after a Spring Attack is a popular house rule. This will guarantee that a character moves more than 5' in a round.

Another popular house rule, similar to what you replied, requires that the character move at least 10' before making a spring attack. This also guarantees that a character will move more than 5' in a round.

Either of these house rules will fix the problems that were mentioned in this thread.