Stances and dying

[Oompa]

Hey all...

A quick question about a fighter activating a stance power and then being knocked to -4 hp (dying and unconscious) and than being healed the next turn.

Is the stance power still active? At the keyword it says it lasts 5 minutes or till the end of the encounter. At the death and dying description it does not say anything about powers ending and the likes when dying...

 

[abyssaldeath]

You answered your own question. Since there is no mention of the stance ending when you are dying then the power is still active.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The most up-to-date keyword text (in the Rules Compendium) states that they last "until the character falls unconscious or dies" (there is more, they also end at the end of an encounter unless they are at-will stances).

Not sure if this wording is in the latest published full errata yet or not, but IIRC there was an FAQ entry or something similar on this a while back too.

So the unconscious/dying character ends whatever stance he's in.

 

[abyssaldeath]

Stupid stealth rules updates.

 

[RLBURNSIDE]

I guess

auto-revival powers, such as those provided by epic destinies, that incorporate immediate interrupt-like mechanics rather than as immediate reactions suddenly got a lot more desirable.

Truth be told, I'm not sure any of the triggers that state "once per day, when you die..." bypass this new stealth stance-ending rule.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

auto-revival powers, such as those provided by epic destinies, that incorporate immediate interrupt-like mechanics rather than as immediate reactions suddenly got a lot more desirable.

Truth be told, I'm not sure any of the triggers that state "once per day, when you die..." bypass this new stealth stance-ending rule.

Yeah, there has been a lot of debate about the technicalities of what exactly happens with "when your hitpoints reach 0 or less" type interrupts. On the whole though if you read through them they really do seem to be pretty much intended to kick in BEFORE any other effects. So for instance stances wouldn't end, the character doesn't fall prone, etc.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah, there has been a lot of debate about the technicalities of what exactly happens with "when your hitpoints reach 0 or less" type interrupts. On the whole though if you read through them they really do seem to be pretty much intended to kick in BEFORE any other effects. So for instance stances wouldn't end, the character doesn't fall prone, etc.

It depends on the wording of the original ability. You can't make a ruling on timing based soley on the text of a trigger, any more than you can do so on a power without knowing if it's an immediate interrupt, immediate reaction, or opportunity action.

Undying Warrior: 'When you die, you can return to life at the start of your next turn. Doing this doesn’t require an action."

Primal Avatar: Once per day, when you die and have at least two healing surges remaining, you can will yourself back to life. At the start of one of your turns within 10 rounds of your death, you can spend two healing surges to return to life.

Chosen: This one doesn't mention a time frame, so it clearly happens immediately. It does not wait till the effect that harmed you has finished resolving, and it does not happen before the effect either. The damage is taken, you're below zero, have the dying condition, fall prone, fall unconscious, then heal the damage. It does not occure before the damage otherwise you'd end up with half your hitpoints - the damage taken. It therefore must occur after the damage. It's important to note that: It does not prevent the damage.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It depends on the wording of the original ability. You can't make a ruling on timing based soley on the text of a trigger, any more than you can do so on a power without knowing if it's an immediate interrupt, immediate reaction, or opportunity action.

Undying Warrior: 'When you die, you can return to life at the start of your next turn. Doing this doesn’t require an action."

Primal Avatar: Once per day, when you die and have at least two healing surges remaining, you can will yourself back to life. At the start of one of your turns within 10 rounds of your death, you can spend two healing surges to return to life.

Chosen: This one doesn't mention a time frame, so it clearly happens immediately. It does not wait till the effect that harmed you has finished resolving, and it does not happen before the effect either. The damage is taken, you're below zero, have the dying condition, fall prone, fall unconscious, then heal the damage. It does not occure before the damage otherwise you'd end up with half your hitpoints - the damage taken. It therefore must occur after the damage. It's important to note that: It does not prevent the damage.

There are however MANY other effects which can trigger at 0 hit points, most of which are interrupts. It is NOT clear exactly what happens. As I said before, generally the most straightforward interpretation is these types of effects trigger before the application of things like the dying condition even though probably by the most strict reading of the letter of the rules you simple 'are in' the dying condition below 0, prone, unconscious, etc. and there is no 'transition point' since those aren't effects of anything, they are simply things which are true when you are below 0. Again this is a rather gray area, though most tables probably play it fairly consistently. It gets tricky though when you start factoring in things like stances or multiple possible effects that could be triggered.

 

[DracoSuave]

There are however MANY other effects which can trigger at 0 hit points, most of which are interrupts. It is NOT clear exactly what happens. As I said before, generally the most straightforward interpretation is these types of effects trigger before the application of things like the dying condition even though probably by the most strict reading of the letter of the rules you simple 'are in' the dying condition below 0, prone, unconscious, etc. and there is no 'transition point' since those aren't effects of anything, they are simply things which are true when you are below 0. Again this is a rather gray area, though most tables probably play it fairly consistently. It gets tricky though when you start factoring in things like stances or multiple possible effects that could be triggered.

How is it grey? Interrupts happen before the thing that triggered them. If damage occurs that reduces you below zero, it occurs before the damage reduces you below zero. Non-interrupts happen after. Not complicated really.

The condition 'dying' happens concurrently with being reduced to zero hit points--it happens immediately when you go below and ends immediately after being brought above. There does not exist a state where you have less than zero hit points but do not have the condition dying (barring an explicit exception). So something that interrupts the dying condition must happen before the damage reduces you below zero. It cannot happen between the two because 'between the two' does not exist.

The same is for dropping unconscious with dying... you cannot be dying and not unconscious (barring explicit exception) and as with unconscious, you cannot be unconscious and not be prone (barring... you get the picture)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

How is it grey? Interrupts happen before the thing that triggered them. If damage occurs that reduces you below zero, it occurs before the damage reduces you below zero. Non-interrupts happen after. Not complicated really.

The condition 'dying' happens concurrently with being reduced to zero hit points--it happens immediately when you go below and ends immediately after being brought above. There does not exist a state where you have less than zero hit points but do not have the condition dying (barring an explicit exception). So something that interrupts the dying condition must happen before the damage reduces you below zero. It cannot happen between the two because 'between the two' does not exist.

The same is for dropping unconscious with dying... you cannot be dying and not unconscious (barring explicit exception) and as with unconscious, you cannot be unconscious and not be prone (barring... you get the picture)

I agree with your logic DS. That doesn't mean it isn't a gray area. Go dig up some of the old threads where this has been debated. I don't see any real point in rehashing all the arguments again.