Standing up from prone and AoO

[Hypersmurf]

No. Very very debatable, even more than my previous comments... but by the rule that an AoO is a SINGLE melee attack, I would not allow the extra attack, just as I would not allow the use of Cleave.

By the same logic, you cannot use Cleave or Improved Trip without the Full Attack Action.

"Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full attack action (see Full-Round Actions, below) in order to get more than one attack."

Do you disallow Cleaves on a standard attack action or a charge? If not, why not?

-Hyp.

 

[Kodam]

good point Hypersmurf. I was reluctant too if the tripper should get the extra attack. But according to the rules (or their "spirit" ) he should get one.
I like my upcomming master of chains more and more...

 

[Li Shenron]

But according to the rules (or their "spirit" ) he should get one.

By the rules maybe, by the spirit not. At least not by my spirit

If I allowed it, I might have to allow also the case when a trip as AoO followed by an extra attack which dropped the target is followed by the extra cleave attack. Which could be 3 attacks for the same opportunity. I don't think that's the "spirit". Now Cleave doesn't really represent making multiple attacks, but rather making a powerful blow that cleaves through the first target and goes on to the next. I may have more doubts about the Cleave extra attack than the Trip extra attack.

edit: sorry for what I wrote about Great Cleave, which is wrong I clear it up

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't know, maybe it has nothing to do with it, but... is the extra attack a free action or not an action?

Because on your turn (whether you take a single attack as a Standard Action or a multiple attack as a Full Round Action) you can do as many free actions as you wish, up to the limit decided by strict DM's call.

When it's not your turn you can't take a free action unless in a specified circumstance, and in fact you can't take free actions during an AoO.

But I guess that the rules don't bother at all to decide if the extra attack is a free action or not an action or something else

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don't know, maybe it has nothing to do with it, but... is the extra attack a free action or not an action?

It's an extra attack.

If it said "you may make an extra attack as a free action", you'd be right - it couldn't be taken as an AoO. But it doesn't.

In fact, Improved Trip occurs "as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt". So even though an AoO is a single melee attack, the fact that you can pretend you never used an attack to trip, the follow-up attack is still a single melee attack.

Now Cleave doesn't really represent making multiple attacks, but rather making a powerful blow that cleaves through the first target and goes on to the next.

Except that (especially by the tidied-up 3.5 wording) I can stand in a 5' wide corridor, stab an orc 10 feet to the north of me with my longspear and, if he drops, take a Cleave attack to stab the other orc 10 feet to the south of me.

The mechanics of the feat are not a single powerful blow, but an extra attack.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

In fact, Improved Trip occurs "as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt".

Now I see... sounds like Improved Trip lets you do something which looks like tripping & damaging with the same action, although you must have succeeded the tripping part to deliver damage, and you still need a roll for the second part. Quite like an attack and a half? Can you use a different weapon for the extra attack?

It would have been nice if there was a 1-line description of the meaning. Same with Cleave, I have difficulties in imagining what does it look like to cleave.

 

[Waldo]

Can you use a different weapon for the extra attack?

It just says, "melee attack", so I imagine you could hit with whatever you had, or grapple, or disarm, or sunder, or trip again. Whee!

 

[Hypersmurf]

It just says, "melee attack", so I imagine you could hit with whatever you had, or grapple, or disarm, or sunder, or trip again. Whee!

Not Sunder, in 3.0. And while the table doesn't appear in the 3.5 SRD, I believe someone mentioned it hadn't changed...

-Hyp.

 

[Waldo]

Hmmm... dunno.

All 3.5 says is

SUNDER
You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

Don't see how that's any different than any other melee attack.

 

[Snipehunt]

I'm curious what the answer is to this. Both being able to trip the standing up guy and not being able are reasonable interpretations of the rule. What a mess.