Staples refuses to print my PDFs....

[darthkilmor]

The code I'm envisioning lets you copy the PDF. Just how many times is determined by the PDF's creator- one only, one a month, whatever up to an unlimited number or. Once that number is reached, the PDFf can no longer be copied...unless you purchase a renewal code.

Or some such- I'm no programmer, but I know several. Such things are possible.

Such a thing is already well implemented. Example: I needed to buy the EIA-608 closed caption specifications for work. 160$$ pdf. Required a specific plugin for adobe acrobat from the company that sells these standards. Authorizes the one(1) computer that you open the file on. Thats it. Cannot be opened on any other computer. Authorizes the file to be printed Once. This was well over a year ago.

 

[Jim Hague]

Now onto the new topic: printing. I suggest that PDF publishers and sellers should get on this right away and solve the problem for their customers. Not being able to print a product I've purchased reduces the value of that product considerably. Less value to me means it is less likely (far less likely in some cases) that I'll pick up your product

So fix the issue.

PrintFu and Lulu.com are just a couple of the POD services that do just that. And no cruddy comb binding either.

EDIT
Oh, and on the posts talking about how cheap a color laser printer is, be VERY careful. Many of those printers cost more to refill the cartridges than the printer itself. Oh, and the cartridges they ship with the printer might be less than half full.

Ahhh...no. A new color set runs about $120-150 for something expensive like HPs, and a refill is 50-75% of that. Given that a set prints 3000-5000 pages, not a bad deal at all. And most PDFs aren't in color, so you can get away with the monochrome printers on the cheap.

So the answer here is...avoid HP.

 

[Rel]

JustinA, do not post in this thread any further.

 

[TheYeti1775]

*snip*
Not entirely true. I have owned several programs that, if copied illegally, self destruct- either completely or lose significant functionality.

Then you don't own them do you.

Really, I think we are all in agreement many of the copyright laws need a complete re-write.

Originally Posted by Dannyalcatraz
We shouldn't neccessarily expect Kinko's workers- or even managers- to interpret the law properly.

One of the few times you'll hear me vehemently agreeing with a lawyer. This is another reason for re-writing a lot of laws. They should be written so the average person doesn't need a law degree to correctly interpet. But I begin to digress into some political tirade around this point. So I'll behave.

I do have to agree with some of JustinA's stances, and as was mentioned the DRM factors you mentioned as possible implementation are quite the draconic ones. And would be the equilivent of buying a brand new Corvette but only getting a 1.8L 4 cylinder engine with it.

All of us have a line in the sand for this sort of thing, most of us is DRM. From what I've seen most DRM tends to drive sales down vice stopping piracy.

Now one possible solution, is the Print On Demand as was mentioned. Perhaps the PDF publishers can open their own Lulu etc... accounts and have that as part of their offerings on their websites. They can easily verify within their records if you were a 'legitmate' purchaser or not of the product to be printed. Sure you might have to wait a little time for it to get to you, but it does elminate the 'hassle' of a store clerk saying no. And before you say what about us ones that only want a couple pages, well those can easily be done on the personal use copiers at those stores, or on your own at home.

Well there's my two coppers.
Yeti

 

[Jim Hague]

Now one possible solution, is the Print On Demand as was mentioned. Perhaps the PDF publishers can open their own Lulu etc... accounts and have that as part of their offerings on their websites. They can easily verify within their records if you were a 'legitmate' purchaser or not of the product to be printed. Sure you might have to wait a little time for it to get to you, but it does elminate the 'hassle' of a store clerk saying no. And before you say what about us ones that only want a couple pages, well those can easily be done on the personal use copiers at those stores, or on your own at home.

Well there's my two coppers.
Yeti

Most of the PDF sellers I'm aware of offer at least Lulu printing for their books. One thing I'm looking into for PZP is (once our portfolio is larger) offering omnibus volumes, a la Adamant's or Ronin Arts' collections of various sorts.

 

[jmucchiello]

Not quite- I'm talking about something a bit more sophisticated.

The code I'm envisioning lets you copy the PDF. Just how many times is determined by the PDF's creator- one only, one a month, whatever up to an unlimited number or. Once that number is reached, the PDFf can no longer be copied...unless you purchase a renewal code.

The code might also include a virus that destroys unauthorized electronic copies of itself- kind of like the exploding dye packets you used to see in clothing retailers. As a security feature for the purchaser, each PDF would have a purchase code delivered as a seperate file- if your PDF was incorrectly destroyed, you call the PDF issuer, tell them what happened and give them your code to recieve a new PDF (and security code).

Or some such- I'm no programmer, but I know several. Such things are possible.

Of course, such measures would only be a skirmish in the battle of IP protection vs IP infringement...other measures would eventually replace the above.

Danny, when you are reading a forum and you see someone say, "I'm not a lawyer, but...." and then make a most outlandish statement, do you shake your head in amusement or sadness? You know several simple ways to explain why they are wrong but those simple explanations assume the other listener is an attorney. For a layman the explanation actually isn't simple and you just can't take the time to explain it.

Well, I'm a programmer and I'm shaking my head in amusement and contrary to my prior paragraph, I'm gonna go for it. Tell me, if I take this magic PDF you describe and burn it onto a CD before I ever open it, will it be able to delete itself if I abuse it? Nope. What stops me from burning 100 copies of the CD? 1000? Nothing. Suppose I do a complete format and reinstall of Windows (on a machine not connected to a network) every time before inserting the CD into the machine and access the PDF, copying the contents out once, will the copy on the CD know I've copied the data more than once? More than zero times? Nope. There is no place for the PDF to store this data, as it is written on readonly media.

Now, before you say that's a lot of trouble to go through just to copy a PDF, let me introduce you to virtual machine programs. Programs running on you computer can emulate entire systems with different operating system running on them. Multiple copies of an OS or machine setup can be created/destroyed in minutes. So, I could install the PDF into a virtual installation of Windows, set the session to no network access and make the hard drive read only. Now whenever I need that PDF, I can access it fully getting around the DRM whenever I want and it just takes a minute or two to setup.

Even in a normal setup, if the PDF let's me copy the entire contents to the clipboard, what stops me from posting it to another file and sending out onto the Internet for all the world to see? Heck, if I have a big enough screen/monitor setup, I can view the page on screen, do a screen capture and post pictures of the PDF to the web so I don't lose the pretty pictures. I can even OCR the image to get the text back.

In the end, the only people limited by DRM are the honest customers. It is trivially easy to get around most DRM methods. Anyone with sufficient will to break into the PDF will do so if they can google and have half a brain.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, I'm a programmer and I'm shaking my head in amusement and contrary to my prior paragraph, I'm gonna go for it.<snip>

The idea wasn't mine, it was a programmer's- just like lawyers can disagree over a law, I'm guessing programmers can differ on whether something is possible to program.

Perhaps he was blowing smoke. Perhaps he knows something you don't. Perhaps he's simply dead wrong.

I simply have no freakin' idea.

Personally, the best thing I've seen implemented lately is getting the credit card companies to stop serving the sites that carry pirated material.

If they can't process the cards to sell their ill-gotten gain, they have no income, and abandon the site. Ditto if the card the site is connected to gets shut down. It works even if the country in which the pirates are located are located in a foreign nation that doesn't respect IP laws (Russia & China, for example). Unfortunately, it does require constant vigilance- the pirates usually set up another site within a very short period of time.

Of course, it has zero effect on people who distribute pirated IP the stuff for free.

That's why those people get sued.

 

[SteveC]

Ahhh...no. A new color set runs about $120-150 for something expensive like HPs, and a refill is 50-75% of that. Given that a set prints 3000-5000 pages, not a bad deal at all. And most PDFs aren't in color, so you can get away with the monochrome printers on the cheap.

So the answer here is...avoid HP.

Uh, no, actually. I do this sort of thing for a living, and just did a quick check on CompUSA as well as NewEgg, and used a Samsung color laser as my example. The printer was $300, and the four toner cartridges you need to replace on it totaled $310. Cheap color laser printers are an expensive proposition if you intend to print any significant amount of materials. To paraphrase Han Solo, buying a laser printer ain't like dustin' crops.

Check out Tom's Hardware page for more info on price comparisons for color lasers (start here ).

I would SERIOUSLY recommend that people check out the price of consumables for their printers before buying them...if you intend to buy them local, you can see the prices for toner right next to it on the shelf.

Now on the issue of Lulu, I can agree with you...as I recommend that more game companies do their printing through them (or a comparable service) and give the consumer that option. That's VALUE to me as a consumer.

--Steve

 

[the Lorax]

On the one hand, its clear that Kinkos screwed up all those years ago, and now the pendulum has swung well into paranoia.

OTOH, Copyright law is complex enough that you can have a variety of views on it, even between lawyers. We shouldn't neccessarily expect Kinko's workers- or even managers- to interpret the law properly.

You cannot expect a copy shop clerk, or even manager to interpret copyright law, period. You can expect a company who publishes a .pdf to correctly indicate how someone can use the material in the Copyright Notice.

Only the courts can determine Fair Use.

 

[jdrakeh]

UI recommend that more game companies do their printing through them (or a comparable service) and give the consumer that option. That's VALUE to me as a consumer.

--Steve

Word.

I just bought a stack of books from Lulu -- one perfect bound copy of vs. Monsters, one hardcover copy of vs. Monsters, two perfect bound copies of the Basic Fantasy RPG, one hardcover copy of the Basic Fantasy RPG, and one perfect bound copy of the new Senzar challenger, Empire of Satanis (a negative review that I read actually sold me on it) -- with much higher quality binding than any print shop can provide (e.g., comb, coil, or tape), for much less money.

And, shipping aside, that stack of brand new books is also quite a bit fatter than what I could have walked away with at most retail outlets (online or otherwise) for the same amount of cash. Heck, that's six games for less than what three mass produced RPGs will run me at the typical retail outlet. Lulu rocks. It's my new favorite online store