Star Trek Federation Ships Achilles Heel

[The Grumpy Celt]

Rodenberry once compared Star Fleet to the Coast Guard, rather than the Navy.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Rodenberry once compared Star Fleet to the Coast Guard, rather than the Navy.

It's a fitting comparison.

 

[Darrin Drader]

On the other hand Star Fleet becomes extremely plausable as a PARAmilitary organization. When you see force being used the doctrine is very much of a police or border patrol mindset rather than a military mindset. A paramilitary organization with policing and border patrol as well as exploration duties that had an extra military role for which it was not suited tacked onto it by a civilian authority that didn't know how bad an idea that was.

I would buy this if not for their role in the Dominion war, and various other wars through the ages. They even say several times in the Titan book series that during the Dominion war, starfleet built a lot of ships during that time that were little more than mobile gun platforms. It also happens to say repeatedly that the organization exists for exploration and peace.

Another thing to consider is that Starfleet definitely doesn't follow conventional military wisdom. The reason is simply because it was conventional military wisdom that nearly destroyed the world just prior to Zephram Cochrane discovery of the warp drive.

They clearly serve a higher purpose, but like I said before, they're pretty good at blowing the hell out of things when they need to.

 

[Ranger REG]

2.) StarFleet is a paramilitary version of the Oceanographic and Survey Service. In which case all the things that would make it an improbable laughingstock as a military force actually become somewhat reasonable features. Even the poor training, leadership, and discipline makes a great deal more sense if they are really an only vaguely military organization with military responsibilities tacked on by those who didn't realize the inherent problems that causes.

I didn't realize that anyone with a paramilitary structure is laughable to you. I mean we're not dealing with rent-a-cop service hired by your local downtown corporation (no offense to security contractors).

 

[mmu1]

I didn't realize that anyone with a paramilitary structure is laughable to you. I mean we're not dealing with rent-a-cop service hired by your local downtown corporation (no offense to security contractors).

I think it was sort of clear his point was that it was a "laughingstock as a military force", not that all paramilitary forces are inherently laughable, even in the roles they're actually designed for.

Regardless... The problems with the logic behind Starfleet stem from the same source as many other issues with Star Trek - the society presented in the series is a fantastic utopia, based largely on wishful thinking and hopes that humans will one day be able to "transcend" their violent ways.

Unfortunately, that can sometimes be pretty hard to reconcile with the need for dramatic starship battles, dangerous away missions, and menacing galaxy-destroying foes.

The huge success of DS9, with its massive Dominion War storyline, and de-emphasis of many standard "touchy-feely" ST tropes, really underlines the issue.

 

[D.Shaffer]

The thing that's always bothered me about Trek Tech...where are the Fighter ships!?!? You've got these huge, powerful, behemoth starships, which carry dozens of small, maneuverable shuttlecraft and support vehicles. They all have shields and phasers...why not armor them up a little, power up the phasers, mount 2 photon torpedoes on the roof, and use them as fighters?

That's one of the things I think Star Trek got RIGHT, actually. Fighters are a staple in Sci Fi, but (IMO) they're belong more in the 'They look cool' category then the realistic category. Space fighters come about because people tend to equate space navies with wet navies. Space doesnt work the same way though. There's not a different medium that a space fighter could take advantage of over a 'regular' ship. You'd end up with something closer to a PT boat then a 'fighter'.

At least the Battle Star Galactica has no "Achilles Heel Bridge". (But they don't have shields and photon torpedoes, either. And the Cylon Basestars have their weak junction point... )

Well, Old school BSG DID had shields. They just didnt go out of the way to portray them, like ST did. They also had missiles that magically turned into beam weapons after leaving the launching ports.

 

[Darrin Drader]

That's one of the things I think Star Trek got RIGHT, actually. Fighters are a staple in Sci Fi, but (IMO) they're belong more in the 'They look cool' category then the realistic category. Space fighters come about because people tend to equate space navies with wet navies. Space doesnt work the same way though. There's not a different medium that a space fighter could take advantage of over a 'regular' ship. You'd end up with something closer to a PT boat then a 'fighter'.

As much as I like space fighters, I have to agree with you. What is a fighter, if not a manned missile? What's the point in manning it when computer guidance systems can get the missile to the intended target more accurately? The only other use I can see for them is to destroy other fighters, and those can be swatted like bugs by the starship. Every time you see a Federation vessel in combat against small, fighter-like ships, there's a moment or two of phaser activity and those ships become smoking shells.

They also had missiles that magically turned into beam weapons after leaving the launching ports.

I'm sure this is one of the things they're fixing with the Star Trek TOS remasters.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I didn't realize that anyone with a paramilitary structure is laughable to you. I mean we're not dealing with rent-a-cop service hired by your local downtown corporation (no offense to security contractors).

see below

I think it was sort of clear his point was that it was a "laughingstock as a military force", not that all paramilitary forces are inherently laughable, even in the roles they're actually designed for.

Basically what he said. A paramilitary force is capable and useful at the purpose it was originally intended to perform. Which in StarFleet's case would be survey/exploration and policing/border patrol duties based on what I've seen of their doctrines and behaviors. But there's a reason for the difference between military and paramilitary, a paramilitary force facing a true military force is going to be chewed up and spat out. They just don't have the necessary skills.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I would buy this if not for their role in the Dominion war, and various other wars through the ages. They even say several times in the Titan book series that during the Dominion war, starfleet built a lot of ships during that time that were little more than mobile gun platforms. It also happens to say repeatedly that the organization exists for exploration and peace.

I watched the DS9 series frequently, it was my favorite of all the ST series. Many people go directly to the Dominion War and miss the progression leading up to it. At the beginning of the series StarFleet retained a feel and attitude very much in line with TNG. During the lead-up to the Dominion War storyline you see how the deteriorating situation and hostility leads to them gradually adopting many characteristics of a true military force. Which would be very fitting for an organization not really intended as a truly military force or with a great deal of experience at full-scale warfare that suddenly finds itself required to do so by an impending large-scale war.

Another thing to consider is that Starfleet definitely doesn't follow conventional military wisdom. The reason is simply because it was conventional military wisdom that nearly destroyed the world just prior to Zephram Cochrane discovery of the warp drive.

The reason every military force in the world has a very similar core set of behaviors and regulations is that they simply don't work properly without them. Gene Roddenberry was a utopian and his hopes for the future colored his writing. Nothing new about that, but it should still be recognized for what it is.

They clearly serve a higher purpose, but like I said before, they're pretty good at blowing the hell out of things when they need to.

Their skill at "blowing the hell out of things" is highly variable. As the Dominion War progresses it burns the organization down to a more properly military core. But even so their competence and training are somewhat limited. Luckily they never face a really competent enemy. The Klingons were disorganized raiders akin to the Barbary Corsairs in ordinary circumstances and even collectively rely on substandard techniques for cultural reasons. The Dominion is a much greater threat but relies upon simple numerical advantage and "human-wave" tactics. Of all the threats they face the Romulans or Cardassians were really the most competent. Luckily for the Federation the Romulans appear more interested in detente through mutual threat and segregation and the Cardassians simply weren't large enough scale-wise to last against them.

 

[D.Shaffer]

I'm sure this is one of the things they're fixing with the Star Trek TOS remasters.

...I was actually still talking about BSG here. There's a scene in the 'finale' where they launch their missiles at some basestars. Intercut repeatedly looped stock footage of a Titan <?> rocket seperation. And then we cut to a large beam streaking toward the base stars.