Star Trek Picard SPOILERS thread

[Anoth]

I didn't quite get why there had to be two of them? Didn't she say something about there were always two of them made or something?

If they have two of them they can blow up one and still have a story. They said they always made two. But never said why.

 

[MarkB]

I took that to mean that the process of creating their minds created two at a time. I presume that their physical structure / bodies are the same just for engineering simplicity. Whether android bodies can be changed, or changed easily, doesn't seem to be answered. Data could repair damage. But, he had extensive capabilities (secondary processors and such) in his body, such that his body seemed to be an integrated system and perhaps difficult to change.

Thx!
TomB

In this case the bodies aren't simply engineered. Dahj could sustain physical injuries and responded to conventional healing methods, and Picard, in his discussions with Dr Jurati, seems certain that she was a fully organic being with a positronic brain. The technique of creating her is called "fractal neuronic cloning."

If that technique involves creating both a positronic neural network and an organic humanoid body, the two would likely have to be intricately linked - positronic neural tissue growing in place of conventional nerve cells not only within the brain but the entire nervous system, integrating with a body of more conventional human-like physiology, probably possessing actual DNA. If it results in two identical brains, it would certainly be a lot easier to make the bodies identical too.

 

[Mallus]

My main questions at this stage are...

... is Dahj really dead? Looks bad, but she could have been beamed away.

... if Dahj is dead, is she somehow still 'alive' in her sister Soji? I mean, if you're going to make twins using 'fractal neuronic cloning', why not quantum-entangle them? (my tolerance for Star Trek science has reached tolerance limits)

 

[MarkB]

My main questions at this stage are...

... is Dahj really dead? Looks bad, but she could have been beamed away.

The first time I watched the episode I thought the same, but on a second viewing it really does look like much of her head and torso burns away in that last moment. If anything was salvaged it couldn't have been much more than her brain - unless what we and Picard saw was a deliberately-engineered holographic illusion.

... if Dahj is dead, is she somehow still 'alive' in her sister Soji? I mean, if you're going to make twins using 'fractal neuronic cloning', why not quantum-entangle them? (my tolerance for Star Trek science has reached tolerance limits)

That's a possibility. Another lies in the technique used to create her in the first place - if Data's entire consciousness could be extrapolated from only a single one of his neurons, then presumably the same holds true for Dahj.

 

[Anoth]

One would think synthetic beings would be banned under the eugenics laws that were passed after the wars with Kahn that caused it to be banned in the first place. It would make sense in the world of Star Trek to not allow the engineering of a super Race.

 

[Hussar]

I didn't say it was nice, just that it was possible. I mean, what's your alternative explanation for what happened? Murdering them without revoking citizenship doesn't make it better.

Yeah, I think I'll side with the "they didn't pass the Soong test". Otherwise, this is one NASTY plot hole. I'd believe a lot of things about the Federation, but, wholesale, public genocide seems a bit much.

Laws can be changed and in any event Data wouldn't really count in terms of human rights.

Citizenship in the modern era can also be revoked for a variety of reasons.

This isn't citizenship. It was determined, in a Federation court, that Data was a lifeform. This isn't a law and it cannot be revoked. And, again, I'm not really ready to believe that the writers would be that blatant about making the Federation into genocidal mass murderers. Maybe I'm wrong, but, this would be a HUGE right turn for the Federation if I am. Prime Directive violation and Nazi level evil.

Now, maybe the "Soogn Test" isn't quite as... good as it could be and these synthetics were branded as non-sentient when they should not have been. Or, there is a conspiracy to doctor the tests in order to destroy the synthetics. But, I have a serious problem with the notion that the Federation would go back on its own principles to that degree, publicly and in full view of everyone and commit widespread genocide.

Was there any evidence in the show that the 3000 synthetics on Mars were the only synthetics in the Federation? Seems a bit weird if ALL the synthetics suddenly revolted, gathered in one location, and all got rounded up.

 

[Morrus]

This isn't a law and it cannot be revoked.

Do you have a cite for that? I’m no expert in UFP law, but that‘s a strong factual declaration.

 

[Beleriphon]

Do you have a cite for that? I’m no expert in UFP law, but that‘s a strong factual declaration.

It was a Starfleet court process, which is stupid because its like using a Royal Navy courts martial to determine if a guy that gets nicked for petty theft in Birmingham is even a person.

Realistically, since we know so little of actual Federation law and if its a common law system of courts, or something more like civil law process, a question of is a character even a person. I really think in universe this is the kind of thing that would kicked up the chain until some UFP Supreme Court process gets used. But, since we want to resolve everything in a single 40 minute TV episode, instead of Data still having his rights decided 30 years later Picard is now a lawyer, and so is Riker. Because apparently a degree in archaeology makes on a competent attorney in the Federation.

 

[MarkB]

This isn't citizenship. It was determined, in a Federation court, that Data was a lifeform. This isn't a law and it cannot be revoked.

I re-watched The Measure of a Man today, because I was interested in seeing what Dr Maddox was like. The court's ruling was, simply, that Data was a machine, but he was not property and therefore couldn't be coerced into going along with a dangerous procedure. The precedent established was very limited, and could potentially be overruled by a higher court.

Star Trek has always been all over the map in regard to such things. In the same episode they mention that, for instance, the Enterprise's computer could not be expected to refuse to undergo a refit - and yet that thing is so massively sophisticated that it can spontaneously create fully-sentient subroutines of itself as a result of a poorly-worded set of commands (see holodeck-Moriarty in Ship in a Bottle). Heck, some programmers seem to straight-up design holodeck characters to have the potential to develop true sentience, like virtual lounge singer Vic in Star Trek DS9.

Generally, the characters seem to have a huge blind spot when it comes to such generalised computer systems - they neither feel threatened by them, nor treat them as deserving of any particular rights. It's only when the intelligence comes bottled in a neat little humanoid package that they see them as potential equals, or rivals.

 

[Beleriphon]

Generally, the characters seem to have a huge blind spot when it comes to such generalised computer systems - they neither feel threatened by them, nor treat them as deserving of any particular rights. It's only when the intelligence comes bottled in a neat little humanoid package that they see them as potential equals, or rivals.

Like the Doctor in Voyager? Who doesn't even exist as a physical entity and is only a computer program with an interface that uses holodeck technology to present a "person" to interact with as a convenience to the crew. I'm fairly certain that the EMP was eventually used in mining facilities, and they developed personalities.