Star Trek Picard SPOILERS thread

Well, the exact wording from "The Measure of a Man" is that LT. Commander Data "has the freedom to choose".

Which, right there, grants him personhood under the law. Nothing that isn't a person can "choose". As soon as they granted Data the right to choose, they made him a person under law.

Sure, they don't come right out and state that he's a person. But, then again, they don't really have to.

Which rolls us back around to this. Did the Federation commit genocide?
 

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Which rolls us back around to this. Did the Federation commit genocide?

Only if we're assuming Data being a person grants said status to every non-organic potentially sapient thing. I think the exocomps were determined to be a species right?
 

Watched the 2nd episode last night. It's interesting that the Romulans are the ones who control the Borg Cube, but I've never known them to be very altruistic; their reasoning for "freeing" the Borg drones is obviously contrived. More than likely, they are using the technology they are finding to improve their own technology.

The opening scene with the Android revolt was pretty awesome. I am curious as to who or what took control of them.

I really like Picard's Romulan bodyguards, Laris in particular. I remember reading (a long time ago, mind you) about how the Federation and the Romulans were about to start a war, but the Romulans suddenly backed off for no apparent reason; there was some speculation that it was because they encountered the Borg. This could explain the reason for the Zhat Vash.

The Romulans infiltrating Star Fleet is interesting, if over-done.
 

An enjoyable episode, though this one is definitely more about building the plotlines than advancing them.

We have confirmation of Laris and Zhaban's Tal Shiar origins (with no need to read the comics :) ), with Laris getting to show off her forensic skills.

And apparently, the Romulans have their own version of Section 31, except that instead of protecting them from outside threats, the Zhat Vash protect them from robots. And apparently have done so for "thousands upon thousands of years." That's particularly intriguing, since the Romulans only split off from the Vulcans around 2000 years before the in-series present day. A slip of the tongue/script? Or do the Zhat Vash have their origins in ancient Vulcan culture?

So, clearly the Zhat Vash jump to the top of the suspect pool for the Mars attack - they have the motive, and they're zealous enough that they might not care that it costs Romulan lives. However, here's a scary alternative: What if there really is something out there that the Zhat Vash have good reason to fear, and that something is what overrode the androids?

Minor continuity note: The version of the NCC-1701 Enterprise briefly visible as a hologram in the Starfleet HQ lobby is the same one used in Star Trek Discovery.

According to the chalkboard on the Borg cube (or Borg Artifact Research Institute), it's been sixteen years since the last time someone got assimilated - and yet they still don't feel comfortable enough to stick an electronic counter up there. Kinda feel sorry for whoever has to keep re-writing it every day.

But it does at least give us a timeline. This facility has been around a long time - since well before the supernova, in fact. That makes sense if the backstory from the Abrams Trek movie is true, about Nero's mining ship having been retrofitted with Borg tech. There is a reference to the Romulans being its 'current' owners - could it have changed hands at some point?

The Romulans' reclamation of the former Borg appears to be motivated more towards the acquisition and selling of their cybernetic implants than any altruistic feeling towards the organic hosts. Their work here jars with the earlier reference to the Romulans not doing any research into cybernetics (which is highlighted - Narek says the place doesn't feel very Romulan), but then again, perhaps that's why they need so many outside experts.

Notably, Soji, like Dahj, has secured herself a place in the forefront of research into artificial beings. Deliberate? Or merely the result of innate aptitudes and interests?

The heirarchies between Narek, Rizzo and Commodore Oh seem interesting. Oh clearly considers herself in charge, but Rizzo seems to view her more as an ally of convenience than a superior. Perhaps Oh is higher ranking within the Tal Shiar, but Rizzo and Narek are deeper inside the Zhat Vash.
 
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Well, the exact wording from "The Measure of a Man" is that LT. Commander Data "has the freedom to choose".

Which, right there, grants him personhood under the law. Nothing that isn't a person can "choose". As soon as they granted Data the right to choose, they made him a person under law.

Sure, they don't come right out and state that he's a person. But, then again, they don't really have to.

Which rolls us back around to this. Did the Federation commit genocide?

As memory serves, the judge did not give a full clarification on that verdict. And since this a Secret Hideout Production variant license, the liberties being taken are not following the true legacy on the previous history of Trek.

Using a 'slave labor' force...harkens to the darker history of the human race. And this showing in the 24th century, does not make any sense for this callous behavior.
 

As memory serves, the judge did not give a full clarification on that verdict. And since this a Secret Hideout Production variant license, the liberties being taken are not following the true legacy on the previous history of Trek.

Using a 'slave labor' force...harkens to the darker history of the human race. And this showing in the 24th century, does not make any sense for this callous behavior.
This usage of artificial beings was precisely what Maddox was advocating, and what Picard and Guinan were concerned about, during Data's hearing. If it was considered a realistic possibility in that episode, it's not so surprising that it became an actuality a few decades later.

And given that these androids were not truly sentient - not conscious or self-aware as Data was - it's easy to see how they could have fooled themselves into thinking that it was a good idea. After all, the computers driving those bodies were little different from the ones driving their shuttles and comms systems and factories, and everything else in their lives. They should be enlightened enough not to treat them any differently just because they happened to be driving physical replicas of human beings, right? Right???
 

Well, the exact wording from "The Measure of a Man" is that LT. Commander Data "has the freedom to choose".

Which, right there, grants him personhood under the law. Nothing that isn't a person can "choose". As soon as they granted Data the right to choose, they made him a person under law.

Sure, they don't come right out and state that he's a person. But, then again, they don't really have to.
No, the freedom to choose does not mean he is a person. That is what you interpret into it, but at the point of the verdict, it really only means that he can choose not to be dismantled. Everything beyond that would require additional rulings, court decisisons, and laws. And it only applies to him, not anyone else.

Which rolls us back around to this. Did the Federation commit genocide?
For that question however, it is completely irrelevant what the Federation law says. Because every nation can make laws saying that killing some minority is totally okay, and still others would consider killing that minority a genocide.

What matters more is:
Did the Federation kill anyone that was sentient?
1) And we don't know that really, because we don't know if the "synths" were truly sentient. The warning message in the second episode depicting the events of the Synth attack suggests they were "corrupted", which can be applied to sentients, but is more typically applied to computers. The behaviour of the Synths seemed less advanced than Data's behaviour, which could mean it's not truly sentient.
2) We also don't really know if they killed any Synths. In the scene of the attack, the Synth destroys itself at the end (or commited suicide, depending on your opinion on the first aspect). If so, then the Federation didn't killa nyone, they killed themselves. The only thing the Federation said was that they won't make more of them and no one else in the Federation could do it. Would that count as genocide? Do you have the moral and ethical duty to create new copies of artificial life once youc reated the first one?
 

I think from the second episode we can see that the Synths were not sentient, nor as advanced as Data, either by design (to get avoid the slave comparison) or because Maddox was no Soong. Either way, they were treated poorly (and may or may not have minded) and were probably hacked.

My wife points out that if someone hacks an important computer, society doesn't throw away all computers, so chances are, people were uncomfortable with the Synths in the first place (a character says they 'creep her out'). Some people naturally may not have been comfortable with how much it looks like slavery, even if the Synths are declared non-sentient, and would have been against their use. Also the Synth-hating Romulans may have influenced that decision from their infiltration position.

Lots of reasons to ban them, but I don't see a genocide.
 

My wife points out that if someone hacks an important computer, society doesn't throw away all computers
True, but people don't think they were hacked, they think they went rogue. If a machine develops a deadly flaw, then all machines of the same class may well be recalled - and if it's an early model of a new concept, people may be put off from developing similar technologies.

EDIT: Point taken, though. The Zhat Vash may well have helped to orchestrate the degree to which they were rejected.
 

True, but people don't think they were hacked, they think they went rogue. If a machine develops a deadly flaw, then all machines of the same class may well be recalled - and if it's an early model of a new concept, people may be put off from developing similar technologies.

Very true, but also funny in a way - I mean, who here thinks that they won't turn out to have been hacked? (Or at least stealthily and nefariously pre-programed)?

I assume that the federation was not able to find evidence... but it almost certainly still happened...
 

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