Star Wars Spoilers Thread [Spoilers]

So here's my review: 100% a Star Wars film which belongs with the original trilogy.

It's a transitional film, but it does it well. The new generation is really good.

I think the major death was kinda signposted a bit. You knew it was coming long before it happened. I felt worse for Chewie, but he, Rey, and BB8 make a great team.

Is this the first Star Wars film where nobody gets their hand cut off?

Luke lives in Ireland, eh?

Question: WHY was there a map to Luke, and why was it split into two? I feel like I missed something. For that matter, why a map and not just some coordinates? Seems like a random puzzle set up for the sake of it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

If this twist feels contrived to you, then I'm in no position to say you're wrong--glass houses and such.

But do note that there is a big distinction between plot inconsistencies and seat-of-the-pantsing the plot. In particular, the fact that Lucas might not have intended them to be family from the beginning, is not evidence that the story is less than airtight; it's just evidence that he didn't have everything planned out from the beginning. Growing the story as you go is a time-honored means of storytelling, and long as you don't contradict what's been established in-universe, it's no more or less valid than working everything out beforehand.

Probably you already know this, but I'll be darned if I can see how else to interpret the last part of your post.

But telling a story by the seat of your pants can lead to inconsistency and I think that is the outcome with the Luke-Leia sibling relationship reveal. In RotJ they just kind of gloss over the fact that Luke and Leia kissed. To me that is a big consistency issue, because it is pretty clear we were going one direction, went another, and something happened that really stands out as a result. So it is this thing in the plot that both creates 1) a consistency issue and 2) makes you realize they were building as they went (at least when it came to that reveal). It creates an inconsistency because it is as if the audience is supposed to pretend that never happened. I think it was the right storytelling direction to go, but it would have been more consistent if they hadn't kissed. Again, it isn't the end of the world. It doesn't really harm the film in my view (it is just an oddity of it). My point is, if you can handle luke and leia kissing them being revealed as brother and sister, you can probably handle any hand wavy thing they introduce in The Force Awakens.

So I think the Luke-Leia aspect of the story definitely isn't air tight. If it were air tight, they wouldn't have kissed or the kiss would have been folded into the film somehow to make it consistent (i.e. they address it in RotJ in some way). But since neither of these things really happens, the impression I've always had is we are meant to pretend the kiss either didn't happen or it blow it off as being barely a peck on the lips (which given the depth of the kiss, is just impossible to do). I love star wars. I don't really care that much about this aspect of it. But it stands out and it is definitely not air tight storytelling when it comes to the Luke Leia Kiss and sibling relationship.

And again, my point isn't to say the film is awful because of that bit of inconsistency. I'm just trying to point out that Star Wars has always been on the soap opera end of things and it isn't the kind of storyline I would refer to as having a long history of being air tight.

 

[dd.stevenson]

My point is, if you can handle luke and leia kissing them being revealed as brother and sister, you can probably handle any hand wavy thing they introduce in The Force Awakens.

But that isn't true. I, for example, didn't mind the kiss, but plenty of things cropped up in TFA that I didn't like.

So I think the Luke-Leia aspect of the story definitely isn't air tight. If it were air tight, they wouldn't have kissed or the kiss would have been folded into the film somehow to make it consistent (i.e. they address it in RotJ in some way).

I might be tripping over your terminology. "Airtight" is a colloquialism that IME means the absence of plot holes; whereas it sounds like you were bothered by an extreme action that had insufficient closure or follow-up on screen.

In that case, I can see where you're coming from. Some of the reasons it might not have bothered me are (1) RotJ wasn't exactly tight anyway; (2) the kiss occurred in a different film, so its not as if the narrative arc of either film was disrupted; and (3) I actually liked the mature way the luke and leia chose not to think about the childish "ew" aspect of their relationship and instead dwell exclusively on the overwhelming threat to themselves and the galaxy--for me this was a huge character growth moment that increased my appreciation for both of them as serious-minded individuals carrying an immense weight on their shoulders.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But that isn't true. I, for example, didn't mind the kiss, but plenty of things cropped up in TFA that I didn't like.



I might be tripping over your terminology. "Airtight" is a colloquialism that IME means the absence of plot holes; whereas it sounds like you were bothered by an extreme action that had insufficient closure or follow-up on screen.

In that case, I can see where you're coming from. Some of the reasons it might not have bothered me are (1) RotJ wasn't exactly tight anyway; (2) the kiss occurred in a different film, so its not as if the narrative arc of either film was disrupted; and (3) I actually liked the mature way the luke and leia chose not to think about the childish "ew" aspect of their relationship and instead dwell exclusively on the overwhelming threat to themselves and the galaxy--for me this was a huge character growth moment that increased my appreciation for both of them as serious-minded individuals carrying an immense weight on their shoulders.

No, I consider it a plot hole because it is clear to the viewer they are not brother and sister when they kiss, but are brother and sister in Jedi. So it isn't a lack of closure but a lack of explanation after the fact that I was pointing to (had they addressed it and both were clearly uncomfortable or weirdly okay with it, that would have maybe smoothed out some of that inconsistency, but that they never address it, just highlights it even more for me).

Again, it is incest. It isn't a minor taboo. It is significant enough, that not addressing it, just attracts more attention to the inconsistency of it (because if we were meant to accept the kiss, I'd expect it to be dealt with down the road and not off camera). A little bit of 'ew' is how I would have expected adults to handle it. I am sure some people never found this terribly inconsistent, but it is one of the most common plothole concerns I encounter. Yes, you can read it as all being internally consistent within the film if you accept that the kiss happened and they didn't know. But it is so clear and obvious they didn't intend that, that it is very difficult to do.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But that isn't true. I, for example, didn't mind the kiss, but plenty of things cropped up in TFA that I didn't like.
s.

This is all pretty subjective. But I find the kiss incredibly glaring and very much a big plothole in the original trilogy (still love the trilogy). I think the stuff that happened in The Force Awakens is fairly minor by comparison.

 

[dd.stevenson]

No, I consider it a plot hole because it is clear to the viewer they are not brother and sister when they kiss, but are brother and sister in Jedi. So it isn't a lack of closure but a lack of explanation after the fact that I was pointing to (had they addressed it and both were clearly uncomfortable or weirdly okay with it, that would have maybe smoothed out some of that inconsistency, but that they never address it, just highlights it even more for me).

Again, it is incest. It isn't a minor taboo. It is significant enough, that not addressing it, just attracts more attention to the inconsistency of it (because if we were meant to accept the kiss, I'd expect it to be dealt with down the road and not off camera). A little bit of 'ew' is how I would have expected adults to handle it. I am sure some people never found this terribly inconsistent, but it is one of the most common plothole concerns I encounter. Yes, you can read it as all being internally consistent within the film if you accept that the kiss happened and they didn't know. But it is so clear and obvious they didn't intend that, that it is very difficult to do.

Yeah, definitely not connecting with any of this. I see no evidence that the in-universe truth of their relationship changed between movies (ignoring the meta-plot speculation about Lucas.) Nor do I agree that an open mouth kiss is actual incest.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

To clarify, I wasn't commenting on grimdark in Marvel movies (Supes and Batman hold the prize atm, both DC, and that's kinda their jam as anti-Marvel), but in all of media over the past decade or so.

The media's need to be dark and edgy outweighed the quality of stories they told.

This.

To you it might not be. But pretty much everyone who watches the trilogy notices, and for me, sensing that it wasn't clear really stands out and is hard to just dismiss as no big deal. It doesn't ruin the film or anything, it is actually a pretty amusing side note, but it definitely stands out as a weird bump in the story line that they obviously didn't intend. You can point to how there is no reason for it to be an issue, but I think anyone who has siblings is going to react to that on a gut level.

Gut reaction, sure. But that doesn't mean it's, say, a plot hole. Meta, we know it kinda is, but sans that knowledge, it's just not.
It's not a bump or an inconsistency. At all. It's just a somewhat humorous, somewhat uncomfortable thing that happens, that the characters don't make a thing of, much later after a lot of much more important things have happened.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Gut reaction, sure. But that doesn't mean it's, say, a plot hole. Meta, we know it kinda is, but sans that knowledge, it's just not.
It's not a bump or an inconsistency. At all. It's just a somewhat humorous, somewhat uncomfortable thing that happens, that the characters don't make a thing of, much later after a lot of much more important things have happened.

Except it becomes an inconsistency because the viewer senses that it wasn't intended and therefore their relationship is totally different in Empire versus Jedi. It isn't just about the discomfort around incest, it is that you can't but help be aware of the writer's decision to change that aspect of the story. So it feels like they go form not being siblings to being siblings with no real explanation or attempt to smooth it over. To me that is definitely a plot hole.

I think with movies meta can mater a lot. We know in our bones they were not brother and sister in Empire, so it becomes a consistency issue when they don't deal with that.

And again, not disparaging the movie. I am just puzzled that people would be okay with that inconsistency but not okay with some of the relatively minor things in The Force Awakens.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Yeah, definitely not connecting with any of this. I see no evidence that the in-universe truth of their relationship changed between movies (ignoring the meta-plot speculation about Lucas.) Nor do I agree that an open mouth kiss is actual incest.

Well we clearly have a fundamental disagreement about the incest issue. The kiss that was presented on screen, to me that was incestuous if they are brother and sister. That wasn't a hello kiss. I really think anyone with siblings would naturally recoil at the thought of that kind of kiss. I'm not going to get into a debate on incest, but I don't think labeling their kiss a violation of the incest taboo is at all that controversial.

But I guess we just disagree. I don't feel one can escape noticing lucas' intention and I feel like the kiss is significant enough that it hi lights the shift in story direction and creates a point of illogic in the story.

 

[dd.stevenson]

Well we clearly have a fundamental disagreement about the incest issue. The kiss that was presented on screen, to me that was incestuous if they are brother and sister. That wasn't a hello kiss. I really think anyone with siblings would naturally recoil at the thought of that kind of kiss. I'm not going to get into a debate on incest, but I don't think labeling their kiss a violation of the incest taboo is at all that controversial.

Deep kissing a nearby warm-bodied human male in order to make the point to han solo that you'd rather kiss a wookie, and later finding out that the person you kissed was your brother? Borderline at worst. Certainly not something that two serious-minded people would absolutely HAVE TO wring their hands over while weighing the fate of the galaxy.

Lucas would have been within his rights to bring development/closure to this event during the sibling reveal, and maybe it would have been a better movie had he done so. But a plot hole that he didn't? No. No way.

And--this is by the way--given Lucas' on-the-nose style, I'm plenty glad he didn't show them discussing it (or that he was prevented from doing so, as the case may be.)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Deep kissing a nearby warm-bodied human male in order to make the point to han solo that you'd rather kiss a wookie, and later finding out that the person you kissed was your brother? Borderline at worst. Certainly not something that two serious-minded people would absolutely HAVE TO wring their hands over while weighing the fate of the galaxy.

This seems like a very odd position. Again, I really don't want to get into a debate on what constitutes incest. But I have sisters. That is something normal people would get very hand wringing over. That kiss was far too intimate, far too passionate, even if it was done initially to just make a point, from what you'd expect between a brother and sister. And if they did find out they were siblings later, I'd certainly expect that revelation to be a bit horrifying (though maybe incest isn't a taboo in the star wars universe).

Lucas would have been within his rights to bring development/closure to this event during the sibling reveal, and maybe it would have been a better movie had he done so. But a plot hole that he didn't? No. No way.

Again, it is subjective, but to me by not addressing it, it creates an inconsistency in the film, where we almost have two separate pairs of Leia and Luke held in our minds at once.

And--this is by the way--given Lucas' on-the-nose style, I'm plenty glad he didn't show them discussing it (or that he was prevented from doing so, as the case may be.)

It might be that having the plot hole is better than addressing it. Plotholes are sometimes a necessity. They don't ruin a film if they add enough to it. Personally I am a little tired of hearing about plotholes in movies. I'm not saying the films were bad or should have been done differently. I am merely saying that the original trilogy isn't perfect and has plenty of plotholes. That it feels like people may be holding the newer trilogy to a higher standard in that respect.