Star Wars Spoilers Thread [Spoilers]

So here's my review: 100% a Star Wars film which belongs with the original trilogy.

It's a transitional film, but it does it well. The new generation is really good.

I think the major death was kinda signposted a bit. You knew it was coming long before it happened. I felt worse for Chewie, but he, Rey, and BB8 make a great team.

Is this the first Star Wars film where nobody gets their hand cut off?

Luke lives in Ireland, eh?

Question: WHY was there a map to Luke, and why was it split into two? I feel like I missed something. For that matter, why a map and not just some coordinates? Seems like a random puzzle set up for the sake of it.

 

[Maxperson]

I've known families that kiss on the mouth instead of the cheek with no sexual desire present at all. It's just a thing some people do. It's not something I would do with a family member, but it's not incest.

 

[dd.stevenson]

Again, it is subjective, but to me by not addressing it, it creates an inconsistency in the film, where we almost have two separate pairs of Leia and Luke held in our minds at once.

Then this is merely a lexical disconnect, since I don't agree that plot holes (logical inconsistencies, direct contradictions, etc.) are subjective.

It might be that having the plot hole is better than addressing it. Plotholes are sometimes a necessity. They don't ruin a film if they add enough to it.

Oh, absolutely. Hollywood and genre fiction usually have one or more plot holes, and they're fine unless one aspires to literary status. Audiences don't usually care about plot holes unless they disrupt the narrative; and conversely are more likely to be more unforgiving about a disruption to a narrative than to a genuine plot hole.

 

[Guest 85555]

I've known families that kiss on the mouth instead of the cheek with no sexual desire present at all. It's just a thing some people do. It's not something I would do with a family member, but it's not incest.

Sure. There is another scene (in empire or a new hope) where leia kisses him on the mouth but there is nothing sexual about it. But the kiss in from of Han is definitely not that sort of kiss. It was not a familial kiss at all. If you'r kissing your sibling like that, you are in incest territory (which is why people always point to that kiss as an odditity in the film).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Except it becomes an inconsistency because the viewer senses that it wasn't intended and therefore their relationship is totally different in Empire versus Jedi. It isn't just about the discomfort around incest, it is that you can't but help be aware of the writer's decision to change that aspect of the story. So it feels like they go form not being siblings to being siblings with no real explanation or attempt to smooth it over. To me that is definitely a plot hole.

I think with movies meta can mater a lot. We know in our bones they were not brother and sister in Empire, so it becomes a consistency issue when they don't deal with that.

And again, not disparaging the movie. I am just puzzled that people would be okay with that inconsistency but not okay with some of the relatively minor things in The Force Awakens.

NO one thinks you're disparaging the movie, man. WE all get what you're saying. We just disagree.

I never felt that way. Not even 1 percent, ever. From when I was little to the last time I watched the original trilogy, I have always gone from seeing Leia kissing Luke to make Han jealous/annoy him/make a point to "hah! they're siblings. Bet she wishes she'd known that in that one scene!"

Nothing jarring about it. It just played out like a humorous plot twist. Like new information, shedding light on older scenes.

It never even occured to me as a possibility that the whole thing wasn't planned that way from the beginning, until it came to my attention that Lucas didn't have the next movie planned out at any point in the making of the trilogy, and was mostly full of it when he acted like he had the whole story from prequels to the future planned out long ago.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Then this is merely a lexical disconnect, since I don't agree that plot holes (logical inconsistencies, direct contradictions, etc.) are subjective.



Oh, absolutely. Hollywood and genre fiction usually have one or more plot holes, and they're fine unless one aspires to literary status. Audiences don't usually care about plot holes unless they disrupt the narrative; and conversely are more likely to be more unforgiving about a disruption to a narrative than to a genuine plot hole.

I'd say that the bolded text makes the statement partially untrue. Or, rather, that the sentence would be completely accurate if you deleted said text.

 

[Guest 85555]

Then this is merely a lexical disconnect, since I don't agree that plot holes (logical inconsistencies, direct contradictions, etc.) are subjective.

I would agree logic and logical inconsistencies are objective things. But I do think our perceptions of plot holes and logical inconsistencies in films are quite subjective. In the instance of Luke and Leia, I just find it inconsistency because in part 5 they are clearly not brother and sister, then in part 6 they suddenly are brother and sister. Without dealing with the scenes that raise that issue, for me the inconsistency remains.

 

[Guest 85555]

NO one thinks you're disparaging the movie, man. WE all get what you're saying. We just disagree.

I never felt that way. Not even 1 percent, ever. From when I was little to the last time I watched the original trilogy, I have always gone from seeing Leia kissing Luke to make Han jealous/annoy him/make a point to "hah! they're siblings. Bet she wishes she'd known that in that one scene!"

Nothing jarring about it. It just played out like a humorous plot twist. Like new information, shedding light on older scenes.

It never even occured to me as a possibility that the whole thing wasn't planned that way from the beginning, until it came to my attention that Lucas didn't have the next movie planned out at any point in the making of the trilogy, and was mostly full of it when he acted like he had the whole story from prequels to the future planned out long ago.

And that is fine, I am not saying you have to agree, but the opinion I am expressing is not an uncommon one. To me it isn't just a plot twist, those prior scenes don't just become attempts at humor, they just don't make sense in light of the new information because it is obvious they are not brother and sister in those scenes. Yes, a brother and sister might meet, not know they are siblings, and kiss....but we know the film makers wouldn't do that. It is meta but it is meta that I think is nearly impossible to ignore (at least for me it is). I believe that it isn't a problem for you. I believe that you don't notice it. But I assure you, I notice it every time I watch the trilogy and it always stands out to me as a glaring inconconsistency. It is an inconsistency I've come to find nothing more than a peculiar oddity at this point, but an inconsistency still. And that is fine. A movie about knights romping through space can have inconsistencies like that.

 

[dd.stevenson]

I would agree logic and logical inconsistencies are objective things. But I do think our perceptions of plot holes and logical inconsistencies in films are quite subjective. In the instance of Luke and Leia, I just find it inconsistency because in part 5 they are clearly not brother and sister, then in part 6 they suddenly are brother and sister. Without dealing with the scenes that raise that issue, for me the inconsistency remains.

Sure, there's a tenable case for inconsistent characterization.

 

[Guest 85555]

Sure, there's a tenable case for inconsistent characterization.

And that is what I am trying to get at. To me an essential aspect of the characters (their relationship as siblings or as potential lovers because they are not siblings) completely changes form V to VI.

 

[Umbran]

To me an essential aspect of the characters (their relationship as siblings or as potential lovers because they are not siblings) completely changes form V to VI.

If there's a change, it is between IV and V. We see right at the beginning of Empire Strikes Back that Han is the romantic interest for Leia, in the tunnels of ice on Hoth. And, the famous, "I love you," "I know," exchange between Han and Leia is in Empire Strikes Back as well. Heck, it was right there on the poster!

View attachment 72964

Luke had ceased being a potential lover before V. And we don't need it to be the fact that they are siblings to make it go - she simply is more attracted to Han.