D&D 5E Starting a higher level campaign soon as a player: what to watch out for? What should my DM watch out for?

[SteveC]

In just a couple of weeks our Dragon Heist campaign will be ending, and we're going to go back to my friend's Shackled City game. We recently had an almost TPK that soured everyone on 3.5 and so my friend who DMs it has converted the next chapter over to 5E. We are going to start at 12th level with new or converted characters.

It has been a while since I've played 5E at this level, so I'd love to hear thoughts about what people encounter at this level. The DM has said he expects to have to balance some encounters on the fly if they are too difficult and he's okay with doing that. I would love to hear thoughts from people who've regularly played and run at higher levels to give me, the DM, and players some ideas. The DM is very experienced and has run a ton of different systems, and the players sort of vary in experience. Some are theory-crafters (one is building a hexblade-paladin-bard, so there's that) and some are more "kick in the door" types. So what do people think?

The DM gave us some magic items that were important to the campaign, and has let us select two uncommon items to start with. I'm continuing to play a wizard, and will be a level 12 goblin bladesinger (Nik Nok, Nok Nok's cousin from Kingmaker...)

I'd just love to hear your thoughts that might help make this game a better start with less bumps.

 

[Mort]

First thing:

Make sure everyone is VERY familiar with their characters.

It's happened to me twice now where high level play was requested but when the session started half the group or so had clearly not familiarized themselves with everything their character could do.

This makes things go very slowly (not as bad as 3e high level, but still slow) and is VERY hard on the DM who has his own stuff to worry about rather than prompting the players on the stuff the PCs can do.

 

[Mort]

Second:

Id suggest creating the characters together, or if that's not feasible, to have an open exchange on what each character can do.

You want to have a wide range of abilities to interact with higher level stuff.

And as importantly, you don't want 2 characters with the same schtick but one is clearly better at it (though depending on group size, doubling up isn't the worst thing either - as long as there's no toe stepping).

 

[Oofta]

In addition to what @Mort just mentioned, it's likely going to take a bit to get things balanced out right from both sides of the DM's screen. So the DM needs to be willing to adjust, and I'd consider allowing PCs a rebuild after a session or three. I'd also caution against giving PCs too many magic items, or too much gold for that matter. Personally I'm kind of chintzy as a DM at least until the highest levels, something like 2 uncommon items and 1 rare item. You can give them a few consumables, although I wouldn't go above rare.

Especially compared to previous games you don't really need a lot of magic toys to be effective.

 

[SteveC]

Id suggest creating the characters together, or if that's not feasible, to have an open exchange on what each character can do.

This is a really good idea due to some of the range of knowledge of the different players. I think we have a good mix. The only player I don't know the class of is good enough that they are going to make a solid character. Everyone knows the characters who are already made up and I expect we will have all the bases covered.

Edited to add: I told them that my bladesinger is going to continue in the tradition of a God-Wizard from the last game, so even though I am a Blade Singer, don't expect me to run into melee combat or just toss fireballs.

 

[Mort]

In addition to what @Mort just mentioned, it's likely going to take a bit to get things balanced out right from both sides of the DM's screen. So the DM needs to be willing to adjust, and I'd consider allowing PCs a rebuild after a session or three. I'd also caution against giving PCs too many magic items, or too much gold for that matter. Personally I'm kind of chintzy as a DM at least until the highest levels, something like 2 uncommon items and 1 rare item. You can give them a few consumables, although I wouldn't go above rare.

Especially compared to previous games you don't really need a lot of magic toys to be effective.

Absolutely agree on the items.

Too generous and you get the 12th level barbarian with a strength of 13 (and other good stats as a result) BUT a Belt of Fire Giant Strength.

You can really cheese items if starting at higher levels.

Of course, with many groups this can be avoided with a "hey guys, to let's not cheese out on items, ok?"

 

[SteveC]

You can really cheese items if starting at higher levels.

It's sort of my fault, but the warlock-paladin-bard took gauntlets of ogre power at my suggestion. This player is really good at theory crafting builds but also lost ... I think 10 characters in the previous campaign. The DM has a wall where they put the tokens for all dead characters and I think 90% of them were that one player's. So yeah, it will be interesting to see if that tradition continues. In the 3.5 game, I started suggesting they take items that I liked for their new character that I would use when they died...

But we have a mix of the plot important items, a handy haversack, and some potions in addition to our two uncommon items. And there aren't too many powerful uncommon items. I took a Weapon of Warning for one of mine, which is pretty cheesy, but it's also similar to an item my character in the last game had.

 

[J-H]

Uncommons at level 12? Stinks to be a martial in that kind of environment. Magic items are the only way non-casters can gain mobility options like flight and spider climb, as well as (aside from certain class features) all kinds of defenses like resistances, save bonuses, better AC, and miss chances. Casters, meanwhile have Shield, Absorb Elements, Blur, Blink, Mirror Image, etc.

Here's the advice I included with my Against the Idol of the Sun campaign, which runs 13-20 (plus a few epic boons post-20). For context, the Aarakocra and their god(s) were the BBEGs:

Spoiler: long

Adapting to High Level D&D

High level D&D characters, particularly spellcasters, have the ability to survive almost anything, deal massive amounts of damage, and reshape the battlefield in a round or two. At 5th level, a Fireball at the wrong time can cause a TPK. At 15th level, a typical adventuring party can shrug off 3 Fireballs and a Prismatic Spray with no ill effects.

In combat, this means that the DM is free to throw lots of firepower at the PCs and trust that they will be able to dismantle their enemies in a few rounds. Reviewing the included Campaign Log will show a typical party handle an invisible ancient dragon with ease, teleport to an enemy airship and wipe out its crew, drop into an enemy temple and kill the priest, then leave, or even split up to conduct hit-and-run raids with a Hasted Monk who can literally outrun the enemy. This may seem like a challenge to DM, but the DM’s job is not to conduct the party’s strategy or tactics – simply to make a good effort at defeating them with the resources on hand. Sometimes, the enemy will scare the PCs or chase them off. Sometimes, the players will get good rolls and will cut through 60 CR worth of opponents like a +3 Flaming Dagger versus warm butter.

As spellcasters benefit less from magic items adding options versus non-casters, increasing the Attunement limit by 1 at level 11 and 1 more at level 20 is recommended.

Out of combat, high level players have access to extreme strategic mobility, including Scrying, Teleport (one Aarakocra party that may be used to attack them will include a Helm of Teleportation), and Transport Via Plants. This may seem hard to plan for, but that’s the advantage of a large, pre-populated map. The Aarakocra also have the benefit of a Scrying chamber at every temple, and can be assumed to have good, but not perfect, ability to track the party unless or until Scrying is blocked. The players again do most of the work; the DM simply decides when the players should be attacked, what reasonable steps the enemy is taking in the background, and what additional reinforcements have been dispatched to temples.

The hardest part, in the author’s experience, is choosing quickly what actions enemy should take in large battles (10+ foes vs. the party). Spell selections presented in the Bestiary are typically abbreviated and categorized to help; beyond this – pick a few default actions and use those. Low-level divine casters can’t go wrong with Sacred Flame or Guiding Bolt. High level casters are likely to use their high-level spells first.

The players do not see what happens behind the screen. Sometimes the DM will forget a creature’s special abilities or make sub-optimal choices. Most of the time, the players will never even know, and that’s okay.

 

[delericho]

Uncommons at level 12? Stinks to be a martial in that kind of environment. Magic items are the only way non-casters can gain mobility options like flight and spider climb, as well as (aside from certain class features) all kinds of defenses like resistances, save bonuses, better AC, and miss chances. Casters, meanwhile have Shield, Absorb Elements, Blur, Blink, Mirror Image, etc.

Agreed. I'm inclined to suggest that the players should create their characters with no items, and then the DM assign those. That way they get those important, and powerful items, but they also can't optimize their builds based on having particular items.

Or... don't worry about it.

 

[TheSword]

Two biggest watch outs..

1. Combat-centric. Paizo APs are extremely combat-centric. My party are level 13 in Age of Worms (the follow up to Shackled City) and the bulk of the adventuring is overwhelmingly about killing stuff in your way. Shackled City is very similar, as was savage tide. There are other challenges but your DM really needs to put work in to bring them out. Sacks of hp can get really tedious after a while.

2. World Depth. It’s a corollary to point 1 but with the ability to go anywhere, see anything, kill things with a thought, high level play can lose sight of the detail. In a drive to be epic encounters can lack pathos and PCs can easily ended up wondering why they are there. Luckily if you have already played the first 12 levels of Shackled city you hopefully have lots of contacts and relationship within the city that can add depth. I would just make sure the DM does this, refreshes those links and draws on them. If done properly this is the biggest antidote to problem 1.