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D&D 5E Starting to Hate Hexblades

cmad1977

Hero
These two feats are great, probably the best martial combat feats there are, but they are not really OP.

a 4th level sharpshooter with 16 dexterity is going to average 5.47DPR with a longbow against an AC 15 foe if he takes +10 dmg or 4.35DPR if he shoots normal. A 4th level character who took the ASI to get an 18 Dex will average 5.34 DPR with a longbow against the same 15 AC foe. Those numbers include crits.

The sharpshooter does have other advantages, he can shoot to long range without disadvantage and ignores cover and he can choose when to use +10 and when not to use +10 so he can take the better option, but the character also has a lower AC all the time, lower dex save and lower acrobatics, stealth and SOH.

Bottom line is GWM and SS dramatically increase maximum damage and give some other minor buffs, but the increase in average damage is small.

Yup. I’ve had both in my groups and the character were great but not overpowered in comparison to the rest of the group my any means.
 

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There's really no social skill that can fix the suggestion of 'make sure the world thinks the character is a loser' and 'make sure the character-attached NPC is obnoxious' besides the one that stops you from doing it.

No player character would enjoy those elements, but the player very well might enjoy putting their character through them, and the game isn't about making the character happy.

As far as social skills, I would say being able to roughly read if someone is enjoying something or not and continue or drop it accordingly would basically cover that. That's generally a fairly fundamental social skill, albeit sometimes a very difficult one.

I'm sorry if you've been abused by some sort of cruel troll DM who behaves the way you've decided I would. It wasn't me.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I think the most OP multiclass is a half-elf bladesinger with a 2-level hexblade dip. You can also add a 3-level champion dip once you hit 12th level but that is optional.

Start as hexblade (for the saves) with S8 D16 C10 I16 W8 Ch16, go to level 2 hexblade. Then go 10 levels in bladesinger. Increase charisma at level 6 and 10. Then go 4 levels in champion if you are doing that option and take CBE at 4th level.

The key feature here is bladesinger extra attack which allows you to use EB/AB along with an attack. Using a longsword at 11th level you do 3d10+1d8+4d6+20 in bladesong or 4d10+4d6+20 out of bladesong. You can also go ranged and there you would use a hand crossbow for 3d10+5d6+20.

If you take the fighter dip you can get crits on 19 and action surge.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I don't let people dip.

If you're gonna multiclass in one of my games, which I generally try to avoid, it's going to be a commitment on your part, not a 1 and done "Oh, I just wanted these benefits".

Talk to me about what you wanna have from your class and we'll work something out that doesn't involve a dip. If that means designing or re-building a subclass or entire class to cover what you're hoping to do, so be it.
So a character I want to try starts life as a Goblin Rogue Archeologist S8 D16 C10 I14 W15 Ch 12. (Rogue for the skills and expertise primarily), takes 1 level of wizard at level 2 (rituals, catapult, shield and absorb elements), then spends the rest of his career (probably 12 more levels) as a Fey Wanderer Ranger. Shadow touched feat with cause fear and invisibility and +1W at 6th level. +2 dex at 10th level.

How would you do that without a dip?

This character has some neat abilities and a ton of skills but is not overpowered in combat.
 

These two feats are great, probably the best martial combat feats there are, but they are not really OP.

a 4th level sharpshooter with 16 dexterity is going to average 5.47DPR with a longbow against an AC 15 foe if he takes +10 dmg or 4.35DPR if he shoots normal. A 4th level character who took the ASI to get an 18 Dex will average 5.34 DPR with a longbow against the same 15 AC foe. Those numbers include crits.

The sharpshooter does have other advantages, he can shoot to long range without disadvantage and ignores cover and he can choose when to use +10 and when not to use +10 so he can take the better option, but the character also has a lower AC all the time, lower dex save and lower acrobatics, stealth and SOH.

Bottom line is GWM and SS dramatically increase maximum damage and give some other minor buffs, but the increase in average damage is small.
Sharpshooter by itself isn't bad, but it is very easy to combine with Crossbow Expert and the Archery Fighting Style, which adds up to a lot of damage output if you can get it relatively early (say, by level 6, which is doable with a fighter or vhuman.) It really can break the game unless everyone else in the party is super-optimized, which doesn't leave a ton of options (even Polearm Master + Greatweapon Master falls behind because it's melee and doesn't synergize with any fighting style).

It's the only broken combo I've encountered - and I have played with several different cha-class combos.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
So a character I want to try starts life as a Goblin Rogue Archeologist S8 D16 C10 I14 W15 Ch 12. (Rogue for the skills and expertise primarily), takes 1 level of wizard at level 2 (rituals, catapult, shield and absorb elements), then spends the rest of his career (probably 12 more levels) as a Fey Wanderer Ranger. Shadow touched feat with cause fear and invisibility and +1W at 6th level. +2 dex at 10th level.

How would you do that without a dip?

This character has some neat abilities and a ton of skills but is not overpowered in combat.
Give you some Roguely Skills for your background, let you take an Expertise or Multi-Skill-Proficiency feat. Then just add those spells to the Fey Wanderer/Ranger for you, since they're not significantly dangerous or shocking.

I generally let every player have a "Flavor Feat" at level 1. A separate character-defining trait outside of their background would knock out your need for Rogue altogether, and then spells to the Ranger. So instead you get a level 14 Ranger that has what you want for your character.
 

Shiroiken

Legend
Staight Hexblade isn't unbalanced at all. Since multi-classing is an optional rule, it's not unreasonable to prohibit it for that specific sub-class, or to prohibit it from multi-classing into problem combinations (bard and paladin are the most obnoxious, but sorcerer could be nixed as well). One problem is the 1 level dip into Hexblade, so you could also require it to be the highest level class. If your players have too much of a problem with it, just nix multi-classing entirely.
 

Magister Ludorum

Adventurer
We use feats but no level based ASI. We also don't use the multiclass spellcasting table in the PHB. Characters track spells from different classes separately. No warlock spell levels for paladin smiting or any other broken combo.

We roll stats together as a group when making characters. Each character gets +2 to one stat and +1 to another. That's it. Max ability score without magic is 18.

Not relevant to this thread, but we also use slower healing, easier character death and slower leveling. My kids requested this years ago because 5e was "too easy".
 

pming

Legend
Hiya!
And never even seen one in action.
((SNIP))
So not sure if they were just new or potential powergamer with unrealistic expectations (by level 20). Out of the various local groups afaik I'm the only one running at level 9. The other groups tend to fall apart or run shorter games with 4 games vs my 2.

Anyway just a rant.
No OPTIONAL Feats and no OPTIONAL Multi-Classing. Problem solved. Literally. POOF! Fixed.

I understand your rant...glad you got if off your chest. Nobody likes to be trying to run a game with "ZYX feel" and players wanting to play in a game with "CBA feel". Just not gonna work 9/10 times. :(

BUT...and here's ticketey-boo of it, MC'ing is optional. I mentioned Feats as optional as well because I don't think I've ever heard of a DM who allows one but not the other; the entire point of Feats/MC is to "build a specific, unique and interesting Character". But that's just an illusion. Why do we have the term "Hexblade" or "Sorlock"? Not because they are "unique and interesting Characters utilizing optional rules in the game"....nope...it's because of the EXACT opposite; Feats/MC actively encourage a very specific, very non-unique, series of "character choices". "I take Class X to start, then Class Y to level A, then Feat #1, then Class B, then Feat #2, then....."; that's not "unique", that's preplanned and the same as everyone else.

It's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of DM's, but... IN MY HUMBLE OPINION! ...Feats and MC in 5e are done completely wrong and do the opposite of what they were trying to supposedly do; and this translates into nothing but annoyance, bad feelings, and tears from both sides of the screen. :(

My Suggestion? "Ok guys...we're gonna try a Core Three, no Feats, no MC game this time". Then make sure you let Players have their PC's try to do things that would have normally 'required' a Feat or MC combo, or something from one of the 'other' books. Give it a DC, let them roll. When they pull these things off, they will be thrilled and actually feel like freaking Heroes. Not just "Oh, yeah, well, duh... I'm a level X/Y Z Class/Class/Class with Feat A and Feat B, and Abilities #3 and #8"...because at that point it's, literally, "Yeah, you and EVERY OTHER character with those exact classes, levels and feats...which is every other character with those classes and levels".

Ok. that was MY rant. ;) I don't like Feats or MC in 5e (or Feats in ANY version of 'D&D'; I am a fan of MC'ing in 1e/Hackmaster though...).

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Hiya!

No OPTIONAL Feats and no OPTIONAL Multi-Classing. Problem solved. Literally. POOF! Fixed.

I understand your rant...glad you got if off your chest. Nobody likes to be trying to run a game with "ZYX feel" and players wanting to play in a game with "CBA feel". Just not gonna work 9/10 times. :(

BUT...and here's ticketey-boo of it, MC'ing is optional. I mentioned Feats as optional as well because I don't think I've ever heard of a DM who allows one but not the other; the entire point of Feats/MC is to "build a specific, unique and interesting Character". But that's just an illusion. Why do we have the term "Hexblade" or "Sorlock"? Not because they are "unique and interesting Characters utilizing optional rules in the game"....nope...it's because of the EXACT opposite; Feats/MC actively encourage a very specific, very non-unique, series of "character choices". "I take Class X to start, then Class Y to level A, then Feat #1, then Class B, then Feat #2, then....."; that's not "unique", that's preplanned and the same as everyone else.

It's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of DM's, but... IN MY HUMBLE OPINION! ...Feats and MC in 5e are done completely wrong and do the opposite of what they were trying to supposedly do; and this translates into nothing but annoyance, bad feelings, and tears from both sides of the screen. :(

My Suggestion? "Ok guys...we're gonna try a Core Three, no Feats, no MC game this time". Then make sure you let Players have their PC's try to do things that would have normally 'required' a Feat or MC combo, or something from one of the 'other' books. Give it a DC, let them roll. When they pull these things off, they will be thrilled and actually feel like freaking Heroes. Not just "Oh, yeah, well, duh... I'm a level X/Y Z Class/Class/Class with Feat A and Feat B, and Abilities #3 and #8"...because at that point it's, literally, "Yeah, you and EVERY OTHER character with those exact classes, levels and feats...which is every other character with those classes and levels".

Ok. that was MY rant. ;) I don't like Feats or MC in 5e (or Feats in ANY version of 'D&D'; I am a fan of MC'ing in 1e/Hackmaster though...).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

No yeah but then you might not have the players.

I don't care if individual don't like game and chose not to play.

If the situation was reversed I would be thinking hexblade or celestial warlock tied to Elistraee somehow or kensai Monk with performer background or whatever.

At least make the effort to fit into the group not I expect to play to level 20 and my buildight work in 3 levels time and make no sense to what the rest of the party is doing.
 

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