Stealth in Combat

[Xorn]

Yup. The last several queries to CSRs all get the same, "We're working on errata." response. They aren't even trying to field the question anymore. I find this encouraging. And until then, I'm not going to continue guessing how they intended to use the rules as intended. (I know stealth is supposed to be able to offer CA in combat, but it's still a guessing game as to if you have to move, can you "stealthily" attack, etc.)

 

[Sanzuo]

I think it would be fine if they said "you may only re-stealth under total concealment/cover and not partial." IE when the enemy is not looking right at you. Seems like the easiest fix.

 

[WOLead]

Customer (WOLead ****) 06/13/2008 07:45 AM
1)Does Shadow Walk's Concealment allow you to make a Stealth Check?

2)If 1) is true, then if a Warlock has successfully hidden himself in his concealment, can he attack then move 6 to reroll the Stealth check to hide again? Its assumed he would take the -5 penalty for moving more then 2 squares without the Secret Stride feat.

3)Does teleportation distance count as a part of the move needed to activate Shadow Walk's Concealment?

On an unrelated note:
Is Doomsayer's Proclamation accurate? For the Warlock only has 2 powers that can benefit from it, itself. Dreadful Word, a level 1 Encounter power and Hurl through Hell a level 29 Daily power(After the errata June 11th). Outside sources that may benefit would only be 1 Wizard power, 1 Paladin Paragon Power, and a Terror Weapon.

Does Improved Fate of the Void give +1 cumulative for each enemy that fell before the player's turn, or just +1 on top of the cumulative bonus that would occur. Say 3 enemies under the Warlock's Curse die before the Warlock's next turn. Do he get +4 bonus, or +6 bonus on a d20 roll?

Forgive me for so many questions in one go.

Response (Support Agent) 06/13/2008 03:35 PM
Greetings,

1. Yes, you can make a stealth check after using Shadow Walk.

2. Yes, he can attack and then move, making another stealth check in the process.

3. Teleportation will count towards the movement requirement of Shadow Walk.

4. Doomsayer's Proclamation is written as intended.

5. Improved Fate of the Void will give a cumulative +1 bonus, destroying 3 monsters will give you a +6 bonus.

Please let me know if you need anymore help!

Just posting the response here, since I had 3 questions that dealt with Stealth in Combat for a Warlock.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Perception: No action required—either you notice something or you don’t. Your DM usually uses your passive Perception check result. If you want to use the skill actively, you need to take a standard action or spend 1 minute listening or searching, depending on the task.
(Emphasis Mine,p.186)

So, once something hides, you need to use a standard action in order to spot it again. So, the first stealth is against passive Perception, and then the perceiver is free to use a standard action to spot the hider.

I doubt the 40 rolls a round will happen because why would everything be wasting their standard actions to spot a stealthing creature? If the stealther is the only combatant, I'm sure those standard actions will be used to run up to the place where they saw the stealther jump into. Otherwise, they will ignore him, as it should be, to follow the idea of the sneaky rogue coming in and out of the shadows.

Regrettably, I didn't read all of the pages of the topic so I don't know if this was addressed. I apologize ahead of time.

 

[grolch]

Extrapolating a bit, but under the stealth rules:
...Combat Advantage against a target that isn't aware of you.

stealth (p. 188), Cover and Concealment (p. 280)
My take on it:
looking at the attacking invalidates stealth, I would rule that after an attack hit or miss, the target is aware of you, thereby denying you to gain CA from stealth, and I would deny it if you failed a stealth check with Superior Cover or Total Concealment. Perception is all directions in combat, so keeping an eye on where that arrow came out of the blue isn't impossible. What you do get from making the pop up attacks presented here, is the inability of the opponent to target you with melee or ranged powers, but not area or close.
What you get from hiding is an upgrade to the Total Concealment features (see the Targeting what you can't see rule), which isn't the same as gaining the invisiblity feature (which always grant combat advantage).

Looking at the rogue utility powers involving stealth they are all move actions or related to move actions (a SA is possible with chameleon for one round, but hereafter you're noticed).
I would probably use the pinpointing rules under Total Concealment/ Superior Cover to let someone try to find out where the attacks are coming from.

Totally unrelated, but from my veiwpoint it fits the Rogue as a melee class with ranged options as an opener or a defensive option.

 

[ozziewolf]

As far as allies granting concealment, there is no mention of this in the description of "Line of Sight" on page 273. As noted, it is an exclusion-based system, and while many things are listed as blocking line of sight, there is no exclusion given for allies hindering line of sight. I would interpret this to mean that allies do not block line of sight, and that they therefore provide no concealment for a stealth check because the enemy can clearly see you.

-Dan'L

-Dan'L

I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall with how many times I've said this in this thread. Allies do not block your line of sight. They do block your enemies line of sight giving you cover. Just as your enemies block your line of sight from their allies behind them granding them ranged cover.

 

[Xorn]

Wow, that CSR response contradicts previous CSRs and the PHB, as well. Since you don't START in cover/concealment, you would have to move (gaining shadow walk), then move again to use stealth. Unless you "stealthily" attack, which some CSRs say is possible, others say it's not. /shrug

Incidentally, while I was setting up an adventure and reading over the MM tactics for a halfling slinger:

"Halfling slingers like to set ambushes, using the Stealth skill to gain combat advantage and their sniper power to remain hidden. Once revealed, halfling slingers take cover and bombard enemies with sling stones from a safe distance."

I find it interesting that the tactics specifically mention using stealth to gain combat advantage, but ONCE REVEALED they just take cover and keep attacking from range. There is no mention of using Stealth ONCE REVEALED, even though they felt that the use of stealth before combat needed mention. Heh.

 

[Tuft]

Yup. The last several queries to CSRs all get the same, "We're working on errata." response. They aren't even trying to field the question anymore. I find this encouraging. And until then, I'm not going to continue guessing how they intended to use the rules as intended. (I know stealth is supposed to be able to offer CA in combat, but it's still a guessing game as to if you have to move, can you "stealthily" attack, etc.)

Is that on just anything related to stealth, or on any CSR questions?

 

[Xorn]

I'm just talking about questions regarding the mechanics from Stealth. I'll wager they've had a big enough flood now that they have to get some concrete errata. I've been reading through the MM today though, and checking the tactics on generally "sneaky" creatures, and it's amusing.

There are several mentions of "they will use their stealth to surprise/gain combat advantage" and then specific mention of "after they are revealed" they will continue to attack from range. Absolutely no mention of using stealth during that period. The more I read the MM the more I like "avoids notice" with my interpretation.

It's not like it's that hard to get total concealment or superior cover (both of which remove you from sight) then stealthily move to a location you can attack with CA from. But you likely won't be able to do it every round. Maybe I just like that part of 3.5 too much.

(In 3.5 you could not hide if someone was looking at you without using bluff, or superior cover/total concealment--because all three scenarios made you impossible to see, enabling you to stealth again. And any attempt to hide that wasn't combined with another action was considered a move action.)

 

[Brokenkingdom]

wow...really?

Stealth rules are NOT as complicated/broken as everyone seems to think.

In combat anytime you have cover OR concealment from ALL enemies you may make a stealth check. This stealth check is opposed by ALL enemies' PASSIVE PERCEPTION checks. If your stealth check does NOT beat ALL enemies' PASSIVE PERCEPTION check then you do NOT stealth.

This would be as though one creature noticed you trying to hide and yelled out to its comrades or drew attention to you in some way/shape/form.

As long as you maintain cover OR concealment from ALL enemies you remain stealthed. After you win a stealth check creatures are allowed to make a perception check on their turns as a standard action against your stealth check. You lose stealth if any creature notices you (by having NEITHER concealment/cover) as per before with the yelling or by a successful perception check.

(in certain circumstances a DM can decide if that is appropriate ie: if the creature cannot yell/signal in anyway your DM may decide to allow you to remain stealthed against the other creatures)

Allies grant you concleament ie: standing behind an friend would make you harder to see. Enemies do not grant concealment for you ie: the enemy would move slightly so another enemy could get a clear view. Enemies DO grant concealment for other enemies ie: see the reason allies grant you concealment.

Outside of battle if you attempt to sneak up on something or perform an action stealthily while creatures are around you make a stealth check with the appropriate penalty ie: walking, talking quietly etc. against the passive perception of any creatures reasonably able to notice you.

Cheers.

Also if you trace a line from ANY part of the square you are currently in to ANY part of the square the enemy is in and it touches ANYTHING that is NOT another enemy, you are granted cover/concealment. Enemies NEVER grant you cover/concealment from other enemies unless they are dead and you are hiding behind a rotting pile of them.

SUPER EDIT: Do NOT confuse cover and concealment as being one and the same. They are two seperate entities that play seperate roles. COVER means something makes it more difficult for area/close effects to hit you just as one would imagine hiding behind a big rock might deter some area of effect damage. CONCEALMENT means the enemy cannot get a clear look at you as in if you were in a light brush, fog or even hiding behind a friend. Also my spelling is god awful.