Stealth in Combat

[Blacksmithking]

Can my dragonborn rogue stealth if he stands behind my halfling paladin in the middle of a battle? Do enemies just forget the dragonborn is there?

Can my rogue carry a large wooden block, "The Concealer," drop it at his feet in an adjacent square, and then claim he can stealth?

Can my warlock stealth by using his shadow walk as concealment? Why don't the monsters pay attention to the misty, shadowy, swirly warlock-shaped object in the middle of the room? If this was intended for warlocks, why isn't stealth on the class skill list?

The stealth rules don't work for me. Stealth should allow you to bypass an encounter (sneak past guards), or position yourself going into an encounter (sneak up to the kobold king for a backstab). Once you attack, you should be done with stealth for the encounter.

 

[Ziana]

In combat anytime you have cover OR concealment from ALL enemies you may make a stealth check.

Where in the PHB does it say this? If you attempt a stealth attack against a target, what matters is the target's perception check, not any other monster's. A stealth check is made in conjunction with an action you are attempting to perform stealthily.

As long as you maintain cover OR concealment from ALL enemies you remain stealthed. After you win a stealth check creatures are allowed to make a perception check on their turns as a standard action against your stealth check.

Again, where does it say this? Stealth is associated with actions. It is the action a player attempts stealthily that prompts a DC check, not simply "being stealthed", which is a 3e concept that doesn't apply to 4e. Stealth isn't modal, it's a method.

Allies grant you concleament ie: standing behind an friend would make you harder to see.

The PHB indicates allies grant cover (physically blocking ranged attacks); not concealment.

 

[Ziana]

The stealth rules don't work for me. Stealth should allow you to bypass an encounter (sneak past guards), or position yourself going into an encounter (sneak up to the kobold king for a backstab). Once you attack, you should be done with stealth for the encounter.

All three are valid uses of stealth. Using cover or concealment allows a ranged attacker to gain Combat Advantage, because the target cannot sufficiently anticipate the timing or source location of the attacks.

This actually promotes more tactical behavior on the part of ranged attackers, encouraging them to make use of terrain features to hide from targets and get the attack bonus from Combat Advantage. P280: "combat advantage ... when a defender is ... unable to see the attacker/unaware of you"

 

[Old Gumphrey]

In combat anytime you have cover OR concealment from ALL enemies you may make a stealth check. This stealth check is opposed by ALL enemies' PASSIVE PERCEPTION checks. If your stealth check does NOT beat ALL enemies' PASSIVE PERCEPTION check then you do NOT stealth.

This would be as though one creature noticed you trying to hide and yelled out to its comrades or drew attention to you in some way/shape/form.

Why would calling out to your comrades allow them to see or hear something that they cannot see or hear?

"Hey where did that rogue go!? I can't see her!"

"Hark, friend, I see her in that bush!"

"Oh, hey, I see her now too! W00t!"

I'm pretty sure the rule is whoever's check you beat can't see you. You can't just have the person with the highest check make everyone else's check for them. It doesn't make any sense.

Can my rogue carry a large wooden block, "The Concealer," drop it at his feet in an adjacent square, and then claim he can stealth?

Hey, it worked for Solid Snake.

 

[keterys]

The PHB indicates allies grant cover (physically blocking ranged attacks); not concealment.

And only WRT to ranged attacks, so that does nothing for allowing stealth.

 

[wocky]

Actually one of my main problems with the stealth rules is that, although I believe stealth to be subjective (you can be hiding from some of your enemies but you don't need to be hiding from all), hiding usually requires standing in a very specific position and/or being still... any of which would ordinarily grant combat advantage to any enemies you're not hiding from.

 

[Ziana]

And only WRT to ranged attacks, so that does nothing for allowing stealth.

Right. I believe it's intended that characters can make stealth attacks in combat from behind cover or concealment; but that hiding behind other players to do so is *not* intended. The halfling playing peekaboo from behind the dragonborn is pushing it.

 

[Ziana]

Evan T. (Wizard CSR)
Can ranged attackers, eg. rogues and rangers, use cover (eg, walls, pillars) or concealment (eg. bushes, darkness) to make stealth attacks during combat?
You can make a stealth attempt with any action that you do. So, if you have cover or concealment, you can attempt to hide yourself as part of your attack. If you are successful, then you are given combat advantage against your opponents who can not see you.

Is it part of the design intention of 4E that players are encouraged to make use of tactics that can grant Combat Advantage, and using terrain to make stealth attacks is intended and encouraged by the rules?
This stealth system was implemented to make cover and concealment useful to players, and make the environment more interactive.

 

[RigaMortus2]

"You can't avoid notice after you have already been noticed. You need to either use a Distraction (via Bluff in combat) or you can't "re-hide". Now if you can achieve Total Cover/Concealment, then your Stealth determines if your enemy's can figure out where to attack, and if they fail to even determine a direction, I'll allow stealth through normal cover/concealment again, but once you have been noticed, Stealth only avoids notice, it doesn't erase it."

You don't need TOTAL Concealment/Cover, just regular Concealment/Cover. So if you are fighting in fog for example, you could be hidden, make an attack (revealing yourself in the process), then re-hide.

 

[Ziana]

Further answer from Joe (Wizards CSR) 19/06/2008
So the core question here that I would like to confirm is: each time a player attempts a stealth attack during combat (which could be each round for each stealther), the player's stealth check DC is:
a) the passive perception of their target (since this is the only monster they need to be hidden against)
b) an active perception roll for the target (requiring a roll from both player and DM, each turn)
c) the passive perception of all monsters in range, whether they're involved in this attack or not
d) the active perception checks of all monsters in range (requiring multiple rolls from the DM each turn)

The Stealth check is opposed by a Perception check from each observer. To gain combat advantage on the attack, the attacker only needs to succeed vs the target, though the DM can of course play around with this. Unless characters are actively being perceptive, use the passive value.
The DM will always make the final ruling on any issue that arises.