Stealth in Combat

[Ziana]

Normally the passive perception. Active if the creatures are actively looking (eg, spending a minor action each turn) for stealthers. Normally only the target is relevant, but the DM may decide other creatures are involved.

 

[Ziana]

Oph: the penalty is to the stealth check done related to attempting to move stealthily more than 2 squares. I've seen nothing that indicates it affects subsequent checks.

Eg, you run through partial darkness past a camp of guards eating dinner. You take -10 to your check to do so, vs their passive perception. You stop and take cover behind a barrel. If none of them noticed you, you can then make a stealth attack with no penalty.

Such is my understanding anyway.

 

[Ophidimancer]

I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that the second statement was in regards to warlocks who, as a class feature, gain Concealment when they move more than 3 squares, which lasts until the end of their next turn.

what I was proposing was that the warlock can move 6 squares gaining concealment from Shadow Walk after 3, stop moving, and make a Stealth check with no penalty. They'd be visible for 3 squares (2?) concealed for 3 squares, and then be stealthed when they stop.

 

[Leugren]

Sorry, it may seem minor, but there's a difference in how we see this. Per p188: "Stealth: Part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily".


Right. His move action cannot be done stealthily. Per the unblocked line of sight rule, he's automatically seen moving into the cover.


He can make a stealth check as part of an action (eg his attack) once he's behind cover. The move action can't be done stealthily, so the stealth check isn't part of the move action or related to it.

I disagree with this. You are basically saying that, if any part of my move takes me through a square that affords my opponents a full line of sight to me, then I cannot attempt a Stealth check as part of that move action. This is too restrictive.

I believe that quite the opposite is true: as long as any part of my move action takes me through a square that provides me with cover or concealment, the conditions are fulfilled, and I can attempt a Stealth check as part of that move action. If I end my move in a square that provides full line of sight, then everyone can see me, so the point is moot. If I end my move in a square that gives me cover or concealment, however, then my Stealth check determines who can or cannot see me. At any rate, the Stealth check was made as part of the move action, even though I spent part of that move action in full line of sight, and part of it behind cover. This does not contradict the RAW in any way that I can see, and I would allow it in my game until we get an official rules clarification to the contrary.

 

[Ziana]

P188: "If a creature has unblocked line of sight to you (that is, you lack any cover or concealment), the creature automatically sees you (no Perception check required). "

P122: Shadow Stride Rogue Utility 10 "You must be hiding to use this power. You can move your speed. At the end of that movement, if you have cover, you can make a Stealth check with no penalty for moving. If you make the Stealth check, you stay hidden during your movement."

You don't get to run by in full view of monsters and not be noticed. Stealth doesn't work like in 3rd edition, it's not "invisibility mode". At 10th level, a rogue has the option of taking a utility power that lets them sneak by in line of sight.

Out of combat, if a creature is distracted (eg, facing the other way, a guard patrolling down the hallway, the sexy mage chats up the innkeeper), you can stealth past them where they can't see you. In combat, all creatures are considered to be looking in all directions (there's no "facing" in 4E).

 

[Leugren]

P188: "If a creature has unblocked line of sight to you (that is, you lack any cover or concealment), the creature automatically sees you (no Perception check required). "

Yes, the creature sees me all the way, but when I reach the square at the end of my move which provides me with cover, I get to make a Stealth check, because I now have cover. If I succeed, I have combat advantage. The creature knows where I went, but he can't see me right now unless he succeeds at a Perception roll.

P122: Shadow Stride Rogue Utility 10 "You must be hiding to use this power. You can move your speed. At the end of that movement, if you have cover, you can make a Stealth check with no penalty for moving. If you make the Stealth check, you stay hidden during your movement."

If I have this power, I am Stealthed during my entire move assuming that I succeed on my Stealth check, even though part of that move carries me across squares that afford my opponent a full line of sight to me. My opponent basically has no idea where I went. If I lack this power, the creature watches me move from one area of cover to the other, so he knows exactly where I am when I reach my new area of cover, but even though he has a good idea of where I am, he still cannot see me if I succeed at my Stealth check. It's not that complicated.

Your own interpretation of the rules fails by the KISS principle:

Rogue: I am currently in full view, but I run to that area of cover and attempt a Stealth check.

DM: You cannot attempt the Stealth check because you started your move in full view.

Rogue: OK, but I still have a minor action left, so when I finish my move, I attempt to scratch my ass stealthily.

DM: OK, now that you've scratched your ass, you can make your Stealth check; the kobolds can't see you now, so you can gain combat advantage.

In all of the postings by the various CSRs, we only have one that seems to involve any sort of a dialog with an actual game designer/developer and it states this:

This stealth thing was bugging me last night so I actually got in with some of our product experts and I got a better description of how stealth works. Read below Its easier than I described.

You only make 1 stealth check and that sets the DC for those enemies to see you. So basically you move for cover/concealment as your move action. The stealth check is actually considered part of that move action.

 

[Ziana]

Leugren: I believe you're still thinking of stealth in previous edition (2 or 3) terms.

Yes, the creature sees me all the way, but when I reach the square at the end of my move which provides me with cover, I get to make a Stealth check, because I now have cover. If I succeed, I have combat advantage. The creature knows where I went, but he can't see me right now unless he succeeds at a Perception roll.

Again, this is the point you don't seem to be getting. Stealth is not an action by itself. It's part of whatever action you are taking. You don't "roll for stealth" just because you happen to be behind cover. You roll when you move or attack.

Since you were exposed during your move, that move was not stealthy. You were seen.

But since you are behind cover, your attack CAN be stealthy. You make a stealth roll that is part of your attack. If that roll is successful, then yes, you have combat advantage.

If I have this power, I am Stealthed during my entire move assuming that I succeed on my Stealth check, even though part of that move carries me across squares that afford my opponent a full line of sight to me.

Right, that's the benefit of a 10th level rogue utility power. You get to break the line of sight rule, and expose yourself during a move but still stay stealthed if you start and end behind cover.

DM: OK, now that you've scratched your ass, you can make your Stealth check; the kobolds can't see you now, so you can gain combat advantage.

No, the kobolds don't see you scratch your ass. That has no bearing on anything else. They know you're behind the cover. You have the protection cover gives against their attacks. WHEN you attack, you then make a stealth check to see if you can do so stealthily, and so gain combat advantage.

This is the difference between 2/3 and 4:
2/3: Run behind a wall, "Hide", then move around as if you're invisible, or "move silently" and sneak up on someone.
4: Move, attack, or anything else. If you have cover/concealment, you can do a stealth check as part of the action. If you succeed that particular action is stealthy.

The stealth check is actually considered part of that move action.

This CSR response was actually just a few days after launch, June 11. CSRs at the time were providing completely contradictory answers on stealth to player questions. Following which, if you read this thread in its entirety and the one on Gleemax they stopped answering all stealth questions for a few days. Then they got their story straight.

The same CSR said in the following message "Remember again, you CANNOT make a stealth check without moving first. You can't call for a check without moving." which directly contradicts the PHB, and which later CSR responses showed was wrong. You can stay behind one piece of cover and make stealth attacks each round.

It's very simple. Get to cover. Roll a stealth check when you attack. If you succeed, you have combat advantage against you target. Do this each round.

 

[zoroaster100]

O.k., I think I understand how to use Stealth in combat under most circumstances now. So long as you have cover or concealment at the time you make an attack, you make a Stealth check to see if you have combat advantage against your target. Other Stealth checks may be needed in or out of combat to determine if various opponents can see you and/or are aware of you, but even if the target knows what square you are in, if you have cover or concealment you can try to succeed at a Stealth check when you attack to gain combat advantage. At least that is what I think right now. It would be great to get a full FAQ from WOTC on this to make completely sure that I am understanding it correctly.

 

[Ziana]

I agree, it would definitely be helpful to get a detailed article on exactly how the designers intend stealth to work from WotC.

 

[Arbitrary]

That is a pretty convincing argument for how stealth works.