Stealth in Combat

[Xorn]

I still like reading the tactics for a Halfling Slinger in the MM.

Specific mention of using Stealth for combat advantage at the start of the fight (actually stated to use stealth for this), but not one mention--in ANY tactics for any high stealth creature--to use stealth to achieve combat advantage once spotted.

Food for thought.

 

[Surgoshan]

I'd say that it doesn't matter where you are during the whole of your move, but only where you end. Say you move three squares with no cover. On your fourth step you end up behind a wall and duck (roll for stealth). The mobs don't know if you've stopped there, if you have more movement, what have you. But because you moved a lot, you didn't have as much time to try and hide well. But because you ducked and they don't know much (anything) about you, they still don't know where you are, unless they're really perceptive.

I wouldn't penalize the player for where he was, only for where he is and how he got there.

 

[Miar]

Related question... The warlock power eyebite says "you are invisible to the target until the start of your next turn". Does this mean you reappear and are seen and don't get combat advantage or can you make your attack while coming out of invis. and get combat advantage??

 

[Barzhac]

Broken

This entire dialoge tells me that both Fighters and Rogues are broken. Fighters have no powers - none - that they can use with a ranged attack. Rogues not only do have a numbers of powers that can be used at range (piercing strike vs. those pesky soldiers, and sly flourish for extra damage are bot hat will, and can be used melee or ranged). So with a pillar and a little ducking my high dex rogue hits well, causes moderate damage (unless she picked up longbow), and gets sneak attack damage on top of that.

So at first level, with jsut a dagger and piercing strike, it's something like +8 to hit vs. reflex, a d4+4+2d6 damage (13.5 points).

Meanwhile, the fighter, who's trained in Military ranged weapons, fires a longbow, with probably a +2 (maybe +3 if he has some dex) to hit, and a d10 (Maybe +1) damage. Since Longbows are useless to high strength PC's, he uses javelin instead (ever fired a bow with a pull too strong for you? I'll defintiely be using the old HR to bring back strength pull bows). Now he gets +6 to hit vs AC does a d6+4 damage (average 7.5). All his "training" is worht exactly spit.

And in hand to hand, the rogue still does at least as much damage as the fighter, has about the same AC (thanks to the "no ability bonus to AC in heavy armor" rule), roughly equal other defenses (averaged out).

It would seem that the fighter's one and only job is to be a meat shield for the rest of the party. Um, who exactly wants to play a meat shield? Didn't we used to have hirelings for that sort of thing precisely because nobody wanted to do it?

I;ve been playing both a fighter and a rogue and have yet to see anythign the fighter can do better than the rogue. I have yet to see any reason to have one in the party at all. And now, with the adition of using stealth to get off sneak attacks more often than not, the rogue also becomes an artillary platform.

Sure glad they spent so much time removing the "broken" stuff from 3.5

 

[Barzhac]

UUURRRGHGH!!!!!

Please ignore my pitiful typing. Behind it lies a mind of beauty and geniu!

No, really! I promise!

 

[Barzhac]

g e n i u s

yeah, that's waht I meant.

 

[Barzhac]

W H A T

All right, my mind is apparently no longer on duty. Later

 

[Arbitrary]

Fighters not having good ranged damage isn't a very big deal.

 

[Surgoshan]

I don't know if we'll be getting a ranged defender; the roles don't seem to meld. The fighter having the ability to use any ranged weapon is an ancillary benefit (gives him more options, like when they fight a dragon he's not completely useless after it takes to the air), but it's not part of his core purpose.

 

[coldpheasant]

Fighter crushes rogue

It would seem that the fighter's one and only job is to be a meat shield for the rest of the party. Um, who exactly wants to play a meat shield? Didn't we used to have hirelings for that sort of thing precisely because nobody wanted to do it?

I;ve been playing both a fighter and a rogue and have yet to see anythign the fighter can do better than the rogue. I have yet to see any reason to have one in the party at all. And now, with the adition of using stealth to get off sneak attacks more often than not, the rogue also becomes an artillary platform.

Sure glad they spent so much time removing the "broken" stuff from 3.5

Consider this: Human Fighter with a 20 Str, 14 Con, 10,10,10,8. Wield a heavy flail or a maul (2d6 damage). Feats: Power Attack and Weapon Focus.

5 str +2 proficiency +1 fighter weapon talent would give you a +8 to hit.

+6 when you power attack.

Reaping Strike (lvl1, at-will): 2d6 + 9(5str +3 PA + 1 WF) damage on a power attack if you hit. If you miss it would still do 5 damage. The rogue has no lvl one at-will powers that damage their opponent on a miss.

Passing Attack (lvl 1, encounter): First hit: 2d6 + 9. _shift_ Second hit 2d6 + 9. Total = 4d6 + 18 damage in one turn. I think you'll find this comparable to a rogue's encounter power damage.

Brutal Strike (lvl1, daily): 6d6 + 9 damage! Since this is a "reliable" power you would not expend your daily use if it missed. That's 45 potential damage at first level. Not bad for a meat shield, eh? The rogue has no "reliable" lvl 1 daily powers. It's nice to have a 6d6+9 attack up your sleeve every day that WILL hit.

O yeah, and you'd still be able to manage a 14 constitution with your 20 strength. Not so amazing... but you could make up weak defenses with feats as you progress. As a fighter, you'd likely benefit more than other classes from magical weapon enhancements as well. Remember, 3[W] means a lot more for a maul than it does for a shuriken or a dagger.

Of course, damage is not the only part of a role playing game or even a tactical miniatures game. There are many reasons to play a fighter, and one of them is to be able to smash things with a big hammer. Don't focus on how a fighter compares to a rogue, but focus on how effective a rogue can be when the fighter has the attention of the enemies