Stealth in Combat

[Surgoshan]

Allies grant cover to allies, yes, but only for the purpose of the ranged attack, not for purposes of stealth.

 

[Dan'L]

The goblin archer readies an action to shoot her the next time he sees her.

Now she "stealthily" moves behind a tree (with another 30) and then "stealthily" attacks said archer with another 30 stealth roll. He (miserably) fails his perception roll; can he attack her?

Regardless of the goblin's action, her attack grants combat advantage?

The goblin archer's readied action is an "immediate reaction." Meaning, if he doesn't see her until she attacks, then her attack goes off first, and she clearly has combat advantage. But he will see her when she attacks, since attacking breaks the stealthy. If she regains/maintains cover AFTER her attack and his immediate reaction, THEN she can try to regain a stealthy state.

-Dan'L

 

[Mistwell]

Allies grant cover to allies, yes, but only for the purpose of the ranged attack, not for purposes of stealth.

Where in the rules does it make a distinction between cover from an ally and stealth?

From what I can tell, it just says you need cover with regard to the target. Allies grant you cover with regard to the taget.

 

[Markn]

Where in the rules does it make a distinction between cover from an ally and stealth?

From what I can tell, it just says you need cover with regard to the target. Allies grant you cover with regard to the taget.

I'm at work right now so I can't supply a page number. But I guarantee that allies do NOT grant you cover in regards to stealth. It should be spelled out under the Stealth skill IIRC.

 

[AsmodeusDM]

I for one plan on asking any 4e developers that are going to be @ Origins this week. I read on some blogs that some of them are going to be there.

 

[Mistwell]

No. She is considered hidden because she is already hidden. Yes, she gains combat advantage, but the attack is not "stealthy" and once she attacks she is no longer hidden.

You can try a stealth check with any action. There is no restriction to using stealth with movement. You simply must "[H]ave cover against or concealment from the creature to make a Stealth check", and you can make a stealth check as "Part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily".

As above, the attack itself cannot be stealthy. However, her crawl action can be "stealthy," and note that she gets a -5 to her roll if she moves more than 2 squares.

I disagree. There is nothing that says it has to be a move. It can be an attack action. It can even be a minor action. It might even include a free action. It's just "Part of whatever action you are trying to perform stealthily".

PS: Regarding using allies to gain cover and roll Stealth, the answer is "no."

PHB p 290: "When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover."

This means that the cover ONLY applies during the ATTACKER's turn, when they attack you, and therefore you cannot duck behind your friend and make a stealth roll, since on your own turn your ally does not count as cover.

That is your interpretation, and I think it's not a good one. It's talking about ranged attacks because that is the only time it could come up (if you are in melee, you cannot have an ally between the two of you - even reach would use the ranged attack rules). And it's talking about making an attack because that is when it is generally relevant for that rule. But for stealth, you need cover relative to a particular enemy. Allies provide cover relative to a particular enemy.

Your interpretation also results in problems with interrupt actions. Many powers allow an interrupt attack triggered by someone else's attack. What happens when one of those targets gets such an ranged interrupt attack in response to your attack? Do you have normal cover against their interrupt attack on your turn, but not for your own stealth check in that same round as part of that same attack? How does that make sense?

It makes sense if the rule is "cover relative to your target", which is consistent, and which allows stealth checks from allies being between you and a foe.

 

[Arbitrary]

Either we wait until there is a rock solid clarification or we make our own decisions. The mechanic is poorly implemented and the wordings are confusion and sometimes contradictory.

Further arguing isn't getting anyone anywhere.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm at work right now so I can't supply a page number. But I guarantee that allies do NOT grant you cover in regards to stealth. It should be spelled out under the Stealth skill IIRC.

It's definitely not spelled out in the stealth skill: "Unless a creature is distracted, you must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a Stealth check". That's it.

Allies grant you cover against the target.

Some argue it's only on the opponent's turn, but I disagree with that interpretation. Regardless, it's not spell out, and reasonable minds can and do differ on this topic.

 

[Markn]

It's definitely not spelled out in the stealth skill: "Unless a creature is distracted, you must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a Stealth check". That's it.

Allies grant you cover against the target.

Some argue it's only on the opponent's turn, but I disagree with that interpretation. Regardless, it's not spell out, and reasonable minds can and do differ on this topic.

I'll be home in less than an hour. I'll see if I can find the reference and post the page number...

 

[Markn]

OK, so I forgot I have digital copies at work...

After looking, I guess my guarantee isn't worth anything Mistwell. My apologies. There is no clear cut rule on this. There are tons of ways to interpret the rules (which is why this thread has so many pages).

I guess I have nothing of value to add....

If anything, one should strictly go by the Determining Cover rule underneath the Cover section since Stealth only refers to Cover and makes no distinction between creatures and objects. Based on that, it would seem that you could hide behind an ally.

Having said that, I'm not allowing PC's to hide behind alllies. But that is my house rule.