Stealth in Combat

[tweinst]

It's definitely not spelled out in the stealth skill: "Unless a creature is distracted, you must have cover against or concealment from the creature to make a Stealth check". That's it.

Allies grant you cover against the target.

Some argue it's only on the opponent's turn, but I disagree with that interpretation. Regardless, it's not spell out, and reasonable minds can and do differ on this topic.

On page 280 of the PHB, it says:

Creatures and Cover: When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover. Your allies never grant cover to your enemies, and neither allies nor enemies give cover against melee, close, or area attacks.

You only get cover for ranged attacks. Creatures do not provide cover for any other purpose.

 

[Markn]

You only get cover for ranged attacks. Creatures do not provide cover for any other purpose.

That's an interpretation of the rules because it does not talk about stealth. Its specific regarding ranged, melee and area attacks. The last sentence of your quote is not within the description, therefore that is your interpretation (and a reasonable one I might add).

Again, while I disagree with you, that is the way I play it simply because I don't like the consequences of playing it the other way.

Edit - I see what you are saying now, the first part of the sentence: "Your allies never grant cover to your enemies, blah blah blah" could be seen as a pretty clear statement however many would still argue that reading that sentence as a whole it is still only talking about attacks. So, I agree with you afterall.

How's that for girly indecisiveness for you?

PS - I'm not a girl.

PS2 - Hope you girls don't take offense to that!

 

[deleteme123456]

I do think the Stealth rules, as written, are a bit goofy. Here's how I would houserule it:

New Condition: "Hidden" - Grants combat advantage. Shouting or attacking ends. Requires a Stealth roll vs Passive Perception to perform any non-attack action and remain hidden.

New Move Action: "Hide" - Requires cover or concealment. Cannot be performed when adjacent to an enemy. Cannot be performed if any enemies have unblocked line of sight to you. Make a Stealth roll vs the highest Passive Perception of all enemies within line of sight to become hidden.


Rule clarification: Distract - If you succeed in your Bluff check, you must immediately move into cover or concealment, and make a Stealth roll to become hidden. Moving in this manner does not provoke an Opportunity Attack from the target. If you do not move into cover or concealment, you automatically lose hidden status as soon as your turn ends. (This is actually consistent with the rules as written, but the PHB doesn't explain it very well)

I like this but I want to clarify how you Hide. No enemies can have "unblocked line of sight to you." What exactly does this cover? Basically you're wide open? You already need cover/concealment. Then enemies who have line of sight to you get a perception check... but wait, I thought nobody had line of sight to you? I guess this means the key is in "unblocked" line of sight... could you maybe define that better, in game mechanics?

(This isn't a criticism, I really like this as a start to simplifying the horrible RAW, I just want to get this part clarified before I start using it.)

 

[Mistwell]

On page 280 of the PHB, it says:



You only get cover for ranged attacks. Creatures do not provide cover for any other purpose.

Again, I disagree, and your not responding to my already posted response to this point.

Range has nothing to do with it. Of course it only applies to range - if you were next to the target, you could not have someone between you and the target. So lets put an end to placing significance on the "range" part of it - it's not relevant for this discussion, it was just used to describe the situations that would arise.

As for attacks, in my opinion having cover "against" someone is having cover from their attacks. If you disagree, let's hear why. You have to show that having cover "against" something isn't present with the cover provided by allies against attacks.

 

[Surgoshan]

The reason your allies don't provide true cover is covered by the exceptions based rules formulation.

The definition of cover is "The target is around a corner or protected by terrain" and superior cover is "The target is protected by a significant terrain advantage, such as...". Neither of those includes either allies or foes.

Then, later, an exception is granted for ranged attacks that specifically states, 'When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover".

Thus, a creature can only grant its allies cover for ranged attacks and not stealth, because creatures are not a part of the terrain and the exception they're granted only covers ranged attacks.

 

[threegee]

This thread involves a whole lot of people making things up. I prefer to discuss the rules as written, which generally precludes caring what the CSRs have to say. However, thinking about their varying responses raised a question in my mind: at what point does stealth play a role in the associated action? Using stealth is not-an-action because it is part of another action, but when does it happen? At the beginning? At the end? Somewhere in the middle?

It seems to me that the CSR responses may assume that the effects of stealth come into play after the action. Stealth as part of an attack is meaningless because a character cannot be hidden following an attack. Therefore, a move action involving stealth would be the most logical predecessor to an attack. On the other hand, certain responses imply that stealth can be part of an attack action, so milage may vary.

Regardless, I believe part of understanding stealth fully involves knowing whether the benefits come into play before, during, or after the main part of the action.

 

[Mistwell]

This thread involves a whole lot of people making things up. I prefer to discuss the rules as written, which generally precludes caring what the CSRs have to say. However, thinking about their varying responses raised a question in my mind: at what point does stealth play a role in the associated action? Using stealth is not-an-action because it is part of another action, but when does it happen? At the beginning? At the end? Somewhere in the middle?

It seems to me that the CSR responses may assume that the effects of stealth come into play after the action. Stealth as part of an attack is meaningless because a character cannot be hidden following an attack. Therefore, a move action involving stealth would be the most logical predecessor to an attack. On the other hand, certain responses imply that stealth can be part of an attack action, so milage may vary.

Regardless, I believe part of understanding stealth fully involves knowing whether the benefits come into play before, during, or after the main part of the action.

I think it covers the whole action. I know of no rules that separate an action into beginning, middle, and end. It's just the action, or it isn't.

But, even if it's "at the end", I still think it's irrelevant. I move into cover/concealment as a move action, without making a stealth check. From the cover/concealment, I use a free action (or minor action) to touch my holy symbol as good luck, in a stealthy manner. The stealth comes into effect at the end of my free action. Since you can use stealth with any action which you are trying to do in a stealthy manner, by RAW it works. I now make an attack that benefits from stealth.

Now, wouldn't it just make more sense to allow stealth to cover the attack action from the beginning without all that silliness?

 

[Mistwell]

The reason your allies don't provide true cover is covered by the exceptions based rules formulation.

The definition of cover is "The target is around a corner or protected by terrain" and superior cover is "The target is protected by a significant terrain advantage, such as...". Neither of those includes either allies or foes.

Then, later, an exception is granted for ranged attacks that specifically states, 'When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover".

Thus, a creature can only grant its allies cover for ranged attacks and not stealth, because creatures are not a part of the terrain and the exception they're granted only covers ranged attacks.

If you are going to argue from the exceptions rule, you should choose the actual rule rather than the brief introductory example description of that rule.

In this case, we want to determine cover. Given that, don't you think it's best if we look at the paragraph titled "Determining Cover"?

"To determine if a target has cover, choose a corner of a square you occupy (or a corner of your attack's origin square) and trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle or an enemy, the target has cover. (A line isn't blocked if it runs along the edge of an obstacle's or enemy's square). If three or four of those lines are blocked but you have line of effect, the target has superior cover."

Note several things from the rule: 1) Range is not relevant, as I said earlier. Again, can we please discard focus on the term "ranged attack", as it is not relevant and was just using the only possible example (you had to be at range because otherwise there couldn't be someone between you and the target); 2) obstacle and enemy are used interchangeably and as equivalents, and both are used to describe "cover" multiple times.

And on re-reading the cover section, the entire section uses language to describe an attack against a target with cover, and never in the context of stealth or from the perspective of the person with cover. We can presume, if any cover can be used for a stealth check, you determine said cover as normal (IE from the perspective of the foe as if the foe were going to attack the stealthing character ("target")). If not, then no cover rules are applicable to stealth - not obstacles nor people, since both are spoken of from the perspective of an attacker against a target with cover and not a stealthy person in cover making an attack.

Therefore, given range is not relevant, and given determining cover for all cover issues uses a rule that includes both obstacles and enemies being in the way, you can make a stealth check using an ally for cover.

 

[toxicspirit]

In my opinion, Stealth is part of each action that you are trying to perform surreptitiously. If you are trying to hide while skulking through the woods, then a Stealth check would be made along with the move action. If you are trying to make a sneaky or otherwise unobserved attack, then a Stealth check is rolled in conjunction with the attack roll.

As for using allies for cover, there are two scenarios. One where a character is trying to use his ally to hide (which seems to be disallowed accoring to RAW), and another where he is using his ally to cover an action he is attempting. This action could very well be an attack (amog other things), which if the character is successful in his Stealth check, could be made with Combat Advantage because his movements and/or intentions were obscured by the intervening person.

Seems logical to me.

 

[threegee]

I think it covers the whole action. I know of no rules that separate an action into beginning, middle, and end. It's just the action, or it isn't.

But, even if it's "at the end", I still think it's irrelevant. I move into cover/concealment as a move action, without making a stealth check. From the cover/concealment, I use a free action (or minor action) to touch my holy symbol as good luck, in a stealthy manner. The stealth comes into effect at the end of my free action. Since you can use stealth with any action which you are trying to do in a stealthy manner, by RAW it works. I now make an attack that benefits from stealth.

Now, wouldn't it just make more sense to allow stealth to cover the attack action from the beginning without all that silliness?

Sorry, I am not following you. If I choose to use stealth as part of a move action, when do I roll? Like I said, is it before, during, or after I push my lead figure across the felt? The rules do not say, so do I choose the most advantageous time, or does the DM choose the least advantageous time? E.g., my character dashes from the bushes through the open to end movement behind a tree. Various monsters have LOS at varying times, based on where my figure is positioned. As followup examples, my character either holds fast or attacks following movement.