Stealth in Combat

[Roxlimn]

A Ranged Rogue would probably benefit greatly from his allies being able to inflict the Daze, blinded, or stun status effects, to have the opponents grant combat advantage. It seems only fair that a Ranged Rogue who doesn't risk getting attacked by close range attacks would have a harder time getting damage in.

Xorn:

Actually the entry that really got me thinking was Line of Sight rules.

Under "Seeing and Targeting," the rules say:

Line of Sight: The first question is what you can see in an encounter
area—that is, what is in your line of sight. To determine whether you can see a target, pick a corner of your space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of the target’s space. You can see the target if at least one line doesn’t pass through or touch an object or an effect—such as a wall, a thick curtain, or a cloud of fog—that blocks your vision.

That is, a creature who has concealment doesn't get to block Line of Sight. For that matter, Stealth doesn't say that either. The use of Stealth accesses neither Total Concealment, Invisibility, nor Line of Sight. If it was meant to make you unseeable, you'd think it would reference any of these rules. It does not.

There ARE powers that block line of sight. There are powers that say they grant total concealment or block line of sight. There are even powers that just say "enemies cannot see you," and that's pretty specific to the phrase "cannot see you."

Stealth doesn't say any of that, where it should have, if it was meant to access such rules.

I would say that if you wanted to use Stealth to regain enemy unawareness, you would first have to break Line of Sight, then you can use Stealth to move into an area with Concealment and remain hidden.

 

[clearstream]

So a ranged rogue isn't a valid build? Someone who sneaks in the shadows and then fires off crossbow bolts or hurls shuriken with deadly accuracy? Without sneak attack, his damage will be awful, especially since his weapon die is smaller without burning a feat just to keep up with the archery ranger, who at least gets his quarry damage too.

I like most of your interpretation, Xorn, but I hate neutering classes because lousy rules or bad writing prevent them from reaching their potential.

The advantage of working from range is that it becomes easier to regain hiding. You're back from the action and your allies are between you and the bad guys. In play that yields more options for moving into new positions unobserved. I also allow distractions to cover movement.

You can also always use the powers that specifically grant you a stealth check, irrespective.

-vk

 

[Roxlimn]

That's good. The Bluff skill can also be used to create a distraction to allow a Stealth check in combat. The implication is that trying to hide even if you have concealment is generally ineffective in combat - you have to create a big enough distraction first so that your enemies lose track of you and can then become unaware of you again.

 

[Foxman]

You lost me at 5. (And at 3, that's a lot of dice rolls every round.) Nothing says the target is mysteriously unaware of you.

The text for the success reads, "You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view."

Just as you can read, "unheard and hidden" I can read that the unheard and hidden from view is a result of avoiding notice. And you have already been noticed, so avoiding is out of the picture. You need to escape their notice (bluff, total concealment, superior cover) before you can start avoiding it again. (My opinion, I can't prove my ruling any more or less than you can't prove yours.)

It appears from your later post that you finally figured out that Unaware =/= Hidden.

Also if you read what I posted again you will only see two spots to roll dice. 1) Bluff vs Insight (and only sometimes) and 2) Stealth vs Perception. And you only really need to roll vs the target you are attempting gain combat advantage over if you are planning on attacking.

Becoming unaware of a creature means that you've lost track of them in combat. You can always attempt to use a perception check to locate them again.

 

[Xorn]

So I'm sitting here entering "Heathen" (the Dungeon adventure) into Fantasy Grounds, and I'm reading one of the encounters. The tactics for the NPCs indicate they will attack, then retreat and hide while another that looks just like them attacks from a different direction.

The tactics say that in order to hide, they have to retreat to these trees they attacked from. There's cover everywhere, and it's Dim Light by default (concealment everywhere) but they have to retreat to these trees.

In Features of the Area, because of the thick foilage around the trees, they provide total concealment.

I'm just saying... every single tactics blurb I read supports my notion--Stealth can keep an enemy unaware of you. Total Concealment/Superior Cover can make you unseen. Once you're seen, I've not read anything that says Stealth suddenly makes you unseen.

And stop trying to convince me--I'm talking to the people that haven't made up their mind which camp they're in. I'm set in how I'm running it--and besides, the rogue in my group flat out stated that he wouldn't use stealth in combat like that even if I allowed it, because it feels stupid to him.

re: Dice Rolls
If you have two people interested in attacking from range, if there is any cover/concealment on the battlefield (a corner is cover, remember) then they should roll. They are giving up a risk-free chance at combat advantage if they don't. Any creature they can see should roll against them if it's an active check, because the PC is going to probably attack the one that gives them combat advantage. Now it's just as likely there are 2 ranged attackers on the ENEMY side, too, who should be doing the same thing. So that's 1 stealth + 5 perceptions per ranged attacker, 24 rolls per ROUND. That's a shitload of dice, my friend. It's most likely more dice to be rolled for Stealth than all other d20 rolls in combat--combined. Even if Mike Mearls was the next person to post, and he said it's active vs active, I'd call him an idiot and house rule.

Okay, I wouldn't call Mearls an idiot, but if he wants to come in and say which interpretation is right, that would be swell.

But I've found a dozen indications of how bad guys will use stealth in their tactics, and every single one of them that mentions becoming unseen after being spotted involves Bluff, Total Concealment, or Superior Cover. Not one time have I ever seen mention of rolling Stealth to make your opponent unable to see you once you have been spotted.

Only unaware of you, UNTIL you are noticed.

 

[AngelBob]

I have been following both sides, listening to all. And I have come to a conclusion.

The problem with the Stealth rules as written, is that they make NO distinction between Stealth in or out of Combat, nearly every other skill does!

I, like Xorn, began questioning how it LOOKED like the skill worked in combat upon reading creature and encounter descriptions. "Why is Sniper even an ability!? If the Goblin Sharpshooter can just re-stealth right after attacking from behind cover, why does it matter that he didn't lose stealth in the first place? Just in case he got a really good roll the first time?"

I have to say, I agree with Xorn on this. The rules are the rules, but they obviously seem to infer the use of common sense more than the letter of the law in some cases.

"The goblin sharpshooter is hidden when the PCs march up into his ambush, from the safety of his sniper nest, he begins taking shots at the PCs tussling with Cutters below. Missing twice, the PCs dont notice him until... Bam, a bolt in the wizards shoulder! 'Up there!' screams the Wizard, as the Goblin runs into the dense foilage, only to re-emerge behind some bushes to try again..."

I really dont think the Goblin was meant to just keep ducking down every turn and popping up for the CA.

So why all the ambiguity as to how this works in combat exactly? Why no set rules for conditions like "Hidden" or "Unaware"? Because we weren't meant to use it in combat. Don't you think that Wizards would have given stealth the whole "keyword" treatment should it be meant to be a major part of combat?

 

[Machus]

I would say that if you wanted to use Stealth to regain enemy unawareness, you would first have to break Line of Sight, then you can use Stealth to move into an area with Concealment and remain hidden.

So by your rule, players who want to use stealth to gain a simple combat advantage (not complete surprise) need to:

1. Obtain total concealment (breaking LOS)
2. Then obtain concealment/cover
3. Then they can attempt a stealth check

That's complete and total surprise at this point. That's far and away better than a simple combat advantage.

Why not just get the entire party to do it then get a free surprise round? To me you're making a house rule for stealth-CA, making it as difficult as it is to get a surprise round.

Determine surprise:

The DM determines whether any combatants are surprised. If any combatants notice enemy combatants without being noticed in return, the aware combatants gain a surprise round.​

 

[clearstream]

That's quite a house rule.

So players who want to use stealth to gain a simple combat advantage (not complete surprise) need to:

1. Obtain total concealment (breaking LOS)
2. Then obtain concealment/cover
3. Then they can attempt a stealth check

That's complete and total surprise at this point. That's far and away better than a simple combat advantage. Quite an arbitrary rule to limit heroic-tier rogues from using stealth in combat.

Why not just get the entire party to do it then get a free surprise round? To me you're making stealth for CA as difficult as it is to get a surprise round.


Determine surprise:

The DM determines whether any combatants are surprised. If any combatants notice enemy combatants without being noticed in return, the aware combatants gain a surprise round.​

Surprise would be helpful for round one, but there's scant RAW to go on for introducing more than one surprise round per encounter. Meaning that it's a one round trick that Rogues don't need anyway (because they get CA on every enemy with lower initiative in round one).

Bluffs, distractions, and amazingly rogue powers all give you ways to earn another stealth check to get back into hiding.

-vk

 

[Xorn]

Um, gaining total cover is actually really easy. Step around a corner. Bam.

What I don't appreciate is being told I'm inventing things. I'm listing page numbers where I've read every single thing I'm interpreting. Disagree if you like, that's where discussion happens, but quit telling me that what I'm quoting isn't printed. It's right there in black and white.

I keep trying to break it down to it's simplest form, because the bottom line is--every single application of Stealth I'm seeing in printed materials is simple--nothing complicated. No need for a flowchart, or six dice rolls per person making ranged attacks from cover/concealment.

My final interpretation (restated in the simplest form) is:
Stealth grants combat advantage in combat by preventing awareness.
Total Concealment grants combat advantage in combat by preventing visibility (as does Superior Cover).

I've pointed out repeatedly that the only time any published material mentions gaining combat advantage through stealth in combat requires Total Concealment or Superior Cover. No one wants to address that talking point (that disagrees with it), and that's fine, but that's why I'm more convinced by my interpretation than anything else I'm seeing.

Seriously. Read Heathen. Read Keep on the Shadowfell. Read the Monster Manual. Read "Combat Advantage". To determine if a target is unaware you are directed to read Stealth. To determine if a target can see you at all you are directed to Concealment.

And by the way, let your rogues Stealth every round from range with no roll most of the time (check the average passive perception he has to beat). Since neither one of us can prove we're right unequivocally, we're both using "house interpetations", thanks.

 

[Mistwell]

Interesting feat I just noticed that may be relevant to this debate:

Secret Stride (Paragon Level, PHB pg. 205):
Prerequisite: Trained in Stealth.
Benefit: You do not incur penalties to your Stealth checks if you move at full speed while hiding or sneaking. You still take the full penalty if you run.

Hiding OR sneaking?

Unless I missed something (which is entirely possible), that may be the missing piece of data from the Stealth skill rules. Perhaps "sneaking" is that other aspect of the stealth skill which involves not being hidden but still being "stealthed" for some issues (like combat advantage)?