Sultans of Defensive Smack
Magus_Jerel
First Post
DAMM -
evidently - I didn't recall correctly...
hate it when that happens
oh well - 1 and three still stand -
Sigil?
evidently - I didn't recall correctly...
hate it when that happens
oh well - 1 and three still stand -
Sigil?
As requested, here is the refined save smackdown (originally the '+200 save' smackdown, but upgraded since becoming aware of repeating Empowerment.)
Here it is:
Human Psi(Tel)1/Clr8/Contemplative9/Pal1/Sor1
*reincarnated* to a Halfling (this is crucial, see later).
Clerical Domains are irrelevant, but Contemplative prestige domains have to be Mysticism and Divination (e.g. Pelor should do the trick).
Base:
From Paladin: +2/+0/+0
From Sorceror: +2/+0/+2 (includes Rat familiar)
From Psion: +0/+0/+2
From Cleric: +6/+2/+6
From Contemplative: +3/+3/+6
Totals (so far): +13/+5/+16
Not too bad so far.
Reflex is looking a bit poorly, so cast Divine Agility to grant yourself the Reflex save of a 20th level rogue: +13/+12/+16
Now, we cast Greater Aspect of the Deity, and then apply the ability mods:
Dex: 18base +5wish +15Quadruple Empowered Cat's Grace (including from Metamagic Rod) +2halfling racial +2halfcelestial racial = 42 (+16)
Con: 18base +5wish +15Quadruple Empowered Endurance +4halfcelestial racial = 42 (+16)
Wis: 18base +5wish +15Quadruple Empowered Owl's Wisdom +4halfcelestial racial +3age = 45 (+17)
Note that due to Timeless Body (Contemplative 9th level ability) there is no penalty to physical statistics from aging.
Add them on: +29/+28/+33
Now we begin the real smackdown:
Cha: 18base +5wish +5advancement +15Quadruple Empowered Eagle's Splendour +4halfcelestial racial +3age = 50 (+20)
Using Mysticism and the Paladin bonus, this gives +21 to saves (not +30, see DotF pg.80)
We now have: +50/+49/+54
Beginning to shape up, but we're still a long way off.
So we turn our attention to feats: (8 total, 7+1 human (hence could not start halfling))
Iron Will +0/+0/+2
Lightning Reflexes +0/+2/+0
Great Fortitude +2/+0/+0
Strong Soul +1/+0/+1
Divine Cleansing +2/+0/+0 (when active) (sacred bonus)
Snake-Blooded +0/+1/+0
Bullheaded +0/+0/+1
Improved Psicrystal +2/+0/+2 (taking Resolve, includes bonus for Hero psicrystal)
NB NO Luck of Heroes as luck bonus will not stack with spells.
The tally stands at +57/+52/+60
Magical Items are next:
Vest of Resistance +5/+5/+5 (resistance)
Armour of Command +2/+2/+2 (gives +4 to Cha, so +2 to all saves)
2 Arms of Nyr +0/+2/+0 (+4 Dex: hey, they are unnamed bonuses, who says you can't have two?)
Potion of Heroism +2/+2/+2 (competence bonus)
That's it. Anything else will be superseded by spells:
That takes us to +66/+63/+69
Finally, here comes the spell run-down.
Recitation +3/+3/+3 (luck)
Righteous Wrath +2/+2/+2 (morale)
Foresight +0/+2/+0 (insight) (from Divination prestige domain)
Tenser's Transformation +3/+0/+0 (competence, normally +5 but only +3 over Potion of Heroism)
Rage +2/+0/+0 (+4 Con)
Emotion: Rage +1/+0/+0 (+2 Con, and believe it or not it does stack with Rage)
Greater Aspect of the Deity (already covered)
Use Miracle to emulate spells which you cannot cast (TT, Rage, Emotion). Technically, if TT'd you cannot cast spell, and same with Rage, so TT yourself and ask a friend to Rage you.
Total: +77/+70/+74
Then, stand behind 9/10 cover. This gives a +4 cover bonus to Reflex saves: it's a bit of a cheat, but smackdowns assume optimal conditions. If you're particularly worried, just assume we create Walls of Stone around ourselves.
This takes us to +77/+74/+74.
Add the halfling racial bonuses and you get the grand total of +78/+75/+75. Add them together and you get +228.
Phew!
And believe it or not, this actually makes quite an effective character even if not going for saves: he can use arcane, psionic and divine items, cast 9th level divine spells and has full armour and martial weapon proficiencies, as well as have a few 1st arcane and psionic abilities as a little boost. Neither are there multiclass penalties (you started as a human, remember?). Finally, it is 'self-contained': there is no reliance on scrolls: 36 Wis gives you 3 9th level spells (Miracles) and 1 domain spell (Greater Aspect of the Deity). NB You only have effective 36 Wis for purposes of memorising spells, read SRD for Owl's Wisdom.
Now what were the DCs for Azathoth's spells again? 60ish? Not a problem
Oh, and have a Heal readied on the condition: if anyone casts Harm on me
Here it is:
Human Psi(Tel)1/Clr8/Contemplative9/Pal1/Sor1
*reincarnated* to a Halfling (this is crucial, see later).
Clerical Domains are irrelevant, but Contemplative prestige domains have to be Mysticism and Divination (e.g. Pelor should do the trick).
Base:
From Paladin: +2/+0/+0
From Sorceror: +2/+0/+2 (includes Rat familiar)
From Psion: +0/+0/+2
From Cleric: +6/+2/+6
From Contemplative: +3/+3/+6
Totals (so far): +13/+5/+16
Not too bad so far.
Reflex is looking a bit poorly, so cast Divine Agility to grant yourself the Reflex save of a 20th level rogue: +13/+12/+16
Now, we cast Greater Aspect of the Deity, and then apply the ability mods:
Dex: 18base +5wish +15Quadruple Empowered Cat's Grace (including from Metamagic Rod) +2halfling racial +2halfcelestial racial = 42 (+16)
Con: 18base +5wish +15Quadruple Empowered Endurance +4halfcelestial racial = 42 (+16)
Wis: 18base +5wish +15Quadruple Empowered Owl's Wisdom +4halfcelestial racial +3age = 45 (+17)
Note that due to Timeless Body (Contemplative 9th level ability) there is no penalty to physical statistics from aging.
Add them on: +29/+28/+33
Now we begin the real smackdown:
Cha: 18base +5wish +5advancement +15Quadruple Empowered Eagle's Splendour +4halfcelestial racial +3age = 50 (+20)
Using Mysticism and the Paladin bonus, this gives +21 to saves (not +30, see DotF pg.80)
We now have: +50/+49/+54
Beginning to shape up, but we're still a long way off.
So we turn our attention to feats: (8 total, 7+1 human (hence could not start halfling))
Iron Will +0/+0/+2
Lightning Reflexes +0/+2/+0
Great Fortitude +2/+0/+0
Strong Soul +1/+0/+1
Divine Cleansing +2/+0/+0 (when active) (sacred bonus)
Snake-Blooded +0/+1/+0
Bullheaded +0/+0/+1
Improved Psicrystal +2/+0/+2 (taking Resolve, includes bonus for Hero psicrystal)
NB NO Luck of Heroes as luck bonus will not stack with spells.
The tally stands at +57/+52/+60
Magical Items are next:
Vest of Resistance +5/+5/+5 (resistance)
Armour of Command +2/+2/+2 (gives +4 to Cha, so +2 to all saves)
2 Arms of Nyr +0/+2/+0 (+4 Dex: hey, they are unnamed bonuses, who says you can't have two?)
Potion of Heroism +2/+2/+2 (competence bonus)
That's it. Anything else will be superseded by spells:
That takes us to +66/+63/+69
Finally, here comes the spell run-down.
Recitation +3/+3/+3 (luck)
Righteous Wrath +2/+2/+2 (morale)
Foresight +0/+2/+0 (insight) (from Divination prestige domain)
Tenser's Transformation +3/+0/+0 (competence, normally +5 but only +3 over Potion of Heroism)
Rage +2/+0/+0 (+4 Con)
Emotion: Rage +1/+0/+0 (+2 Con, and believe it or not it does stack with Rage)
Greater Aspect of the Deity (already covered)
Use Miracle to emulate spells which you cannot cast (TT, Rage, Emotion). Technically, if TT'd you cannot cast spell, and same with Rage, so TT yourself and ask a friend to Rage you.
Total: +77/+70/+74
Then, stand behind 9/10 cover. This gives a +4 cover bonus to Reflex saves: it's a bit of a cheat, but smackdowns assume optimal conditions. If you're particularly worried, just assume we create Walls of Stone around ourselves.
This takes us to +77/+74/+74.
Add the halfling racial bonuses and you get the grand total of +78/+75/+75. Add them together and you get +228.
Phew!
And believe it or not, this actually makes quite an effective character even if not going for saves: he can use arcane, psionic and divine items, cast 9th level divine spells and has full armour and martial weapon proficiencies, as well as have a few 1st arcane and psionic abilities as a little boost. Neither are there multiclass penalties (you started as a human, remember?). Finally, it is 'self-contained': there is no reliance on scrolls: 36 Wis gives you 3 9th level spells (Miracles) and 1 domain spell (Greater Aspect of the Deity). NB You only have effective 36 Wis for purposes of memorising spells, read SRD for Owl's Wisdom.
Now what were the DCs for Azathoth's spells again? 60ish? Not a problem
Oh, and have a Heal readied on the condition: if anyone casts Harm on me
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CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
reapersaurus said:
So non-drow forsakers are eunichs?
reapersaurus
First Post
a Forsaker that doesn't have some other SR to stack is just about useless, yes.
All he has are hp's and a little bit of fast healing vs. all the magic in the world.
Guess who's going to lose?
He might as well be a big, tough, commoner who'd broke (can't afford one magic item)
And we all know, it's all about the magic items to make your PC strong at mid to high levels...
All he has are hp's and a little bit of fast healing vs. all the magic in the world.
Guess who's going to lose?
He might as well be a big, tough, commoner who'd broke (can't afford one magic item)
And we all know, it's all about the magic items to make your PC strong at mid to high levels...
Jeremy
Explorer
I hope not. While our group has opted for the harder, denser, sharper interpretation of adamantine as opposed to the underdark radiation makes it magical version (seeing as antimagic doesn't cancel it), my forsaker's got himself an adamantine katana...
Not sure where he's gonna be at high level with only 20 AC or so and no DR (Magic Destruction? Yeah. Blew something up today worth 34k, but tomorrow, no DR. Hang on mister baddy while I pull out a potion and break it on the ground. Good idea to force them to actively destroy magic, bad implementation to make it every day or lose one of the few chances you have at staying alive without healing magic). But at low levels, considering some classes can take Forsaker at 2nd level, it'll hopefully hold it's own.
Not sure where he's gonna be at high level with only 20 AC or so and no DR (Magic Destruction? Yeah. Blew something up today worth 34k, but tomorrow, no DR. Hang on mister baddy while I pull out a potion and break it on the ground. Good idea to force them to actively destroy magic, bad implementation to make it every day or lose one of the few chances you have at staying alive without healing magic). But at low levels, considering some classes can take Forsaker at 2nd level, it'll hopefully hold it's own.
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Points taken...
Fished out the description in the official SRD (at WotC, not the draft version) on the polymorph ability. I would suggest that this description also be applied to the polymorph spell:
By this definition of polymorph, Ex abilities are not gained, rendering the entire discussion on <Given Ability X> is Ex or Su somewhat moot.
This specifically spells out natural abilities... movement speeds up to 60 feet (120 feet flying) and low-light vision are natural abilities.
Abilities with a Su, Ex, or Sp descriptor are not natural abilities.
Hence, it is of no concern whether "type" (including subtypes such as the cold subtype) are natural abilities or not since it is specifically stated in the description of polymorph that type does not change.
You take your current Ex and Sp abilities with you to your new form. Hence, a troll polymorphed into a deer would still regenerate (Ex) as a deer. A dragon polymorphed into a deer could not use its breath weapon (Su) as a deer.
Hope this helps clear things up... makes it clear to me, anyway... with the provision that Ex abilities are NOT natural and therefore NOT gained on a polymorph, I do not need my Rule 0 (which resulted from my imperfect understanding of the rules in this case).
--The Sigil
Fished out the description in the official SRD (at WotC, not the draft version) on the polymorph ability. I would suggest that this description also be applied to the polymorph spell:
By this definition of polymorph, Ex abilities are not gained, rendering the entire discussion on <Given Ability X> is Ex or Su somewhat moot.
This specifically spells out natural abilities... movement speeds up to 60 feet (120 feet flying) and low-light vision are natural abilities.
Abilities with a Su, Ex, or Sp descriptor are not natural abilities.
Hence, it is of no concern whether "type" (including subtypes such as the cold subtype) are natural abilities or not since it is specifically stated in the description of polymorph that type does not change.
You take your current Ex and Sp abilities with you to your new form. Hence, a troll polymorphed into a deer would still regenerate (Ex) as a deer. A dragon polymorphed into a deer could not use its breath weapon (Su) as a deer.
Hope this helps clear things up... makes it clear to me, anyway... with the provision that Ex abilities are NOT natural and therefore NOT gained on a polymorph, I do not need my Rule 0 (which resulted from my imperfect understanding of the rules in this case).
--The Sigil
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Anyway...
I must admit my gut agrees with you "all Ex are natural" but unfortunately, the rules don't say anywhere that this is the case. I will go with the rules - because they give consistent rulings - to remove the confusion that can result otherwise.
I'm not entirely happy about it, but I can't find a workaround that satisfies my K.I.S.S. desire, so I will grin and bear it... the rules work, even if they don't feel quite right. ;-)
And it is true, "what is more natural to a Dragon than its (Su) Breath Weapon?"
--The Sigil
I must admit my gut agrees with you "all Ex are natural" but unfortunately, the rules don't say anywhere that this is the case. I will go with the rules - because they give consistent rulings - to remove the confusion that can result otherwise.
I'm not entirely happy about it, but I can't find a workaround that satisfies my K.I.S.S. desire, so I will grin and bear it... the rules work, even if they don't feel quite right. ;-)
And it is true, "what is more natural to a Dragon than its (Su) Breath Weapon?"
--The Sigil
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