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Sundering Too Easy
- Thread starter Drew
- Start date
Whimsical
Explorer
As demonstrated here.BardStephenFox said:Oh sure, bring errata into it!- OK, that's cool too. But it doesn't change my concern level very much. In my experience the NPCs using Sunder is much more frustrating to the game than PCs using it. Probably because the players like cool magic toys and feel a certain amount of agitation when those toys are broken.
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
NP, Firestorm!
Shin Okada
Explorer
1) Sunder never kills your opponent (unless that is a hydra). Clever combatants often have several spare weapons. And many monsters don't use manufactured weapon.
2) Higher level opponents often have adamantine/starmetal weapons.
3) You are breaking treasures!
4) In so many cases, disarming is much easier. You don't need to inflict enough damage. Especially when the combatants is multiclassed spell caster. True Strike and Disarm!
5) As soon as you start to take Sunder feat, your buddies suspect that you are taking the way of Black Guard.
By the way, there are ways to make Sunder even more effective. Combat Brute feat from Complete Warrior is rather good. And, Maul of the Titans inflicts x3 damages to inanimate objects.
2) Higher level opponents often have adamantine/starmetal weapons.
3) You are breaking treasures!
4) In so many cases, disarming is much easier. You don't need to inflict enough damage. Especially when the combatants is multiclassed spell caster. True Strike and Disarm!
5) As soon as you start to take Sunder feat, your buddies suspect that you are taking the way of Black Guard.
By the way, there are ways to make Sunder even more effective. Combat Brute feat from Complete Warrior is rather good. And, Maul of the Titans inflicts x3 damages to inanimate objects.
Infiniti2000
First Post
You can't sunder limbs, except in the case of the hydra.Bront said:
Joeluma
First Post
first : sunder isnt too strong, basically theres a lot of cases where it's better just to do straight damage. That being said, without other possibilities, the warrior-types are even more handicapped than they are now (caster / warrior power imbalances).
if you consider things like sundering, you give your fighter more flexibilty
i think yea, theres likely a backlash if the party thinks in the "u destroyed loot" sort of way but if ppl are rping chars that'r just happy you sundered the guy's primary weapon and allowed the stoneskinned mage to pummel him like a redhaired stepchild.
Have you ever looked at the 'brute' prc from d20-war ? i realize its non-core, but you take that, give your large strong brute type fighter with his ancestral relic (possibly a 'item-bane' item, more likely either 'weapon-bane' or 'armor-bane' since most dms wouldnt allow a blanket 'bane' to items). he hits at you with power attack. you wear armor. he misses, but wouldve hit as a touch attack. he hits your armor!
also, i can see some flex space for creative dms in the case of sundering attacks vs natural weapons... such as partial effectiveness; Lowered damage dealing capacity.
if you consider things like sundering, you give your fighter more flexibilty
i think yea, theres likely a backlash if the party thinks in the "u destroyed loot" sort of way but if ppl are rping chars that'r just happy you sundered the guy's primary weapon and allowed the stoneskinned mage to pummel him like a redhaired stepchild.
Have you ever looked at the 'brute' prc from d20-war ? i realize its non-core, but you take that, give your large strong brute type fighter with his ancestral relic (possibly a 'item-bane' item, more likely either 'weapon-bane' or 'armor-bane' since most dms wouldnt allow a blanket 'bane' to items). he hits at you with power attack. you wear armor. he misses, but wouldve hit as a touch attack. he hits your armor!
also, i can see some flex space for creative dms in the case of sundering attacks vs natural weapons... such as partial effectiveness; Lowered damage dealing capacity.
Sunder is easy & powerful, but PCS rarely do it. For that matter Improved Disarm and Improved Trip are enormously powerful, also. Players still rarely use them. *shrug* - if it's a problem in your game, change the rules, but personally I like to see a bit of variation in combat tactics. My NPCs rarely Sunder the PCs' nice weapon because, like PCs, they want it for themselves...
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
There is one huge conceptual problem related to Sunder which rarely gets brought up, so I might as well give it an airing.
Sunder makes it relatively easy to destroy any items - not just magical weapons but most kind of items that a PC or NPC might be carrying.
This seems strange considering the effort that they put into preventing magic items from being destroyed by, y'know, magic.
e.g. Wham! The Red Dragon breaths for 200 points fire damage! Then there is a 5% chance that each target might have to make a saving throw for 1(!) of his magic items. Very CRPG - kills the targets and all his goods appear in a heap where his cremated body lay. Makes the MM wording about red dragons being reluctant to use their breath weapon because it doesn't want to destroy the treasure sound a bit strange.
So on the one hand the designers made it nigh on impossible for energy attacks to destroy magic items, but then with the other hand they made destroying individual items via Sunder almost impossibly easy.
I don't know what their rationale was, but it doesn't seem a sensible outcome. Either allow items to be easily destroyed by sundering AND energy forms or make it difficult for both. Not the strange hybrid situation we currently have.
Cheers
Sunder makes it relatively easy to destroy any items - not just magical weapons but most kind of items that a PC or NPC might be carrying.
This seems strange considering the effort that they put into preventing magic items from being destroyed by, y'know, magic.
e.g. Wham! The Red Dragon breaths for 200 points fire damage! Then there is a 5% chance that each target might have to make a saving throw for 1(!) of his magic items. Very CRPG - kills the targets and all his goods appear in a heap where his cremated body lay. Makes the MM wording about red dragons being reluctant to use their breath weapon because it doesn't want to destroy the treasure sound a bit strange.
So on the one hand the designers made it nigh on impossible for energy attacks to destroy magic items, but then with the other hand they made destroying individual items via Sunder almost impossibly easy.
I don't know what their rationale was, but it doesn't seem a sensible outcome. Either allow items to be easily destroyed by sundering AND energy forms or make it difficult for both. Not the strange hybrid situation we currently have.
Cheers
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