D&D General Surprise, Initiative and What will you do?

[Micah Sweet]

Also, makes me as DM much less reluctant to use surprise against my players.

Edit: never mind. Misread the post.

 

[Horwath]

There is no surprise round in 2014. That's your houserule.

sorry, roll after the round in which surprise has been resolved, 1st round, surprise round, whatever.

rolling after simply prevents metagame.

 

[Stormonu]

Giving one side an entire free round is insanely overpowered

That's the point.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

not a guarantee.

There is an old star trek episode that does this perfectly... the captain (Archer if it matters) is with a genetically manipulated super soldier... the Super Soldier says "I'm going to attack you" then does before the Captain or the guards can react... he stops immediately but has proved his point...

Now D&D simplifies everything... so your perception your speed and your mental reaction are all just shown as "Make a dex check for initiative"

So yeah, you try to get the jump on the super soldier and roll your +2 dex mod with advantage and roll 2d20 and get an 11 and a 13 so you go on 15... the super soldier rolls with disadvantage and gets just under your rolls 10 and 12 so he takes his 10 but adds his +6 dex and +3 prof for a 19... he STILL goes first...

+9 initiative compared to +2 teh +9 is going to go first alot even if teh +2 'gets the drop on him'

but lets go with straight, both in a boxing ring and the bell rings... both roll initiative and the +2 guy rolls a 17... he goes on 19. the the +9 guy needs a 10 or higher, so he STILL has a 50/50 shot at going second.

 

[mellored]

Here, a simple houserule.

Ambush:
If your whole party is hidden, or otherwise planing an unexpected attack, they can choose to take a 99 for their initiative instead of rolling.
Reminder: Tied party members can to choose their order.

Surprised:
If a combat starts and a creature is unprepared, they take a -50 to their initiative roll.


Guaranteed to go first. But not the overwhelming stun all creatures.

 

[Nefermandias]

Nothing about being 2014 surprised prevents you from shouting.

Of course it does. Talking in 2014 is not free. According to the rules, talking is limited to only a brief sentence during your own turn.

 

[billd91]

I think part of the problem lies with framing of what's going on with the springing of an ambush or a surprise attack.

If you win the roll....and you still have to go in order of the roll....so no opening the door, blasting fireball, and then charging in if the order isn't that.

If executing this kind of plan is what you were hoping for, you were probably already screwed with individual initiative because you were counting on someone opening the door having the highest initiative, followed by the lobbing of the fireball, then the people charging in... And that's already problematic if your wizard had a lower initiative than the PCs who want to charge in.
Maybe it's better to consider initiative starting with the opening of the door. Then you don't even have to charge one of the attacking PCs with the cost of opening the door. The surprising PCs effectively get that for free. You could still have issues with the initiative order between the fireballing wizard and charging PCs but that's what Readying actions is for.

Party A is hidden with stealth DCs higher than party B's passive perception. Party A launches a surprise attack.

ROLL INITIATIVE

But someone from Party B still wins initiative (let's call them Sir Speedy). What do they see?

Is Party A's stealth broken because they made an attack, and thus the rolls are informing the fiction and Sir Speedy of Party B noticed the ambush just before it was launched?

Or does Sir Speedy get their turn but party A is still invisible and thus Sir Speedy doesn't have anything to do except maybe dodge or make an active Search check?

If you aren't considering that the attack is launched until the first ambushing PC actually declares their action, yeah, you kind of end up having to kludge this. But, if you consider everyone on the ambushing side effectively starting at the same time and initiative determining the resolution order, then it's not so bad. The ambushers start moving to launch their attacks, starting the encounter, but Sir Speedy managed to react instinctively fast enough to get involved before any of the attacker attacks could actually be resolved.

Starting an encounter can be tricky when perceptions are unequal. I figure that's why various iterations of surprise rules have existed including only getting partial actions in 3e, the wacky variations in AD&D, the 5e.2014 variation, and now this. The trick, I think, is to frame it in a way that it gives you the cinematic results you want while retaining the uncertainty of D&D's game resolution tools.

 

[Xeviat]

If you aren't considering that the attack is launched until the first ambushing PC actually declares their action, yeah, you kind of end up having to kludge this. But, if you consider everyone on the ambushing side effectively starting at the same time and initiative determining the resolution order, then it's not so bad. The ambushers start moving to launch their attacks, starting the encounter, but Sir Speedy managed to react instinctively fast enough to get involved before any of the attacker attacks could actually be resolved.

Starting an encounter can be tricky when perceptions are unequal. I figure that's why various iterations of surprise rules have existed including only getting partial actions in 3e, the wacky variations in AD&D, the 5e.2014 variation, and now this. The trick, I think, is to frame it in a way that it gives you the cinematic results you want while retaining the uncertainty of D&D's game resolution tools.

I know I sound like I'm complaining about the new rules, but I actually like them. This solution is really good: the action that initiates combat is set, initiative determines order of operations. So if hiding rogue takes a shot, and enemy wins initiative, it gets a chance to react.

Should that negate the advantage to attack for invisibility though? I don't think so, but following the fiction implies so.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

All of you guys handing out surprise rounds might as well just declare the other side dead and save yourself some time lol. A full round of unloading straight up ends 5e's pathetic enemies. An at that point the campaign is now a series of auto win ambushes with Pass Without Trace's broken +10 to stealth. Congrats, you won D&D!

BG3 had a decent rule. The person who initiates the fight gets their action first. Initiative is rolled. On their count, they pass their turn, having already acted. Initiative is also rolled on a d6, adding much more weight to initiative bonuses due to the spread.

 

[DEFCON 1]

All of you guys handing out surprise rounds might as well just declare the other side dead and save yourself some time lol. A full round of unloading straight up ends 5e's pathetic enemies. An at that point the campaign is now a series of auto win ambushes with Pass Without Trace's broken +10 to stealth. Congrats, you won D&D!

BG3 had a decent rule. The person who initiates the fight gets their action first. Initiative is rolled. On their count, they pass their turn, having already acted. Initiative is also rolled on a d6, adding much more weight to initiative bonuses due to the spread.

Some of us know how to build encounters such that what you say doesn't actually happen. Not everyone is stuck thinking they have to use the encounter building rules in the DMG thus resulting in pushover fights.