SVM for Warlocks?

[sullivan]

That seems to be a major drawback for warlocks then. They don't have a single ability that works at all in a grapple. And, by the rules, since more SLA's are still by default, there is no Still SLA feat. Guess I'll be house ruling someting about that to make it more fair.

It'd be funny if WotC had an "errata" item that added a completely new feat, Still SLA.

 

[cantrip]

And Baleful Utterance has a verbal one (not optional).

Are you sure? It's not listed in the description.
If word of changing doesn't have a verbal component, whu should baleful utterance have one?

 

[KarinsDad]

That seems to be a major drawback for warlocks then. They don't have a single ability that works at all in a grapple. And, by the rules, since more SLA's are still by default, there is no Still SLA feat. Guess I'll be house ruling someting about that to make it more fair.

More fair?

What happens to most other classes when they get grappled?

"They don't have a single ability that works at all in a grapple."

They tend to not be able to do anything else (with the exception of Monks) until they get out of the grapple. Grappling is the ultimate non-magical "prevent an opponent from doing anything by giving up most of your own actions" action.

Sure, medium level Wizards and Sorcerers or high level Bards can cast Dimension Door (or Teleport in the case of Wizards or Sorcerers) if they happen to have the spell and if they make their concentration roll. But, even these classes can typically only get that spell off in the first round of grapple. Normally, if you get to a second round of grapple, these classes are doomed anyway because the grappler will often pin them and prevent them from speaking.

And even with the Still Spell feat (which takes up a feat slot), only Sorcerers can take real advantage of it. It is not that good of a feat for other spell casters (dedicating a higher level spell slot just in case you are grappled).


Why would you want to make a special grappling exception for Warlocks?

Warlocks can perform Invocations all day long. That has to be balanced somehow.

You come up to a door. No problem. The Warlock will blast away at it until it is gone. Don't bother to worry about too many traps. For that matter, go through the wall instead of the door and you won't set off any traps on the door.

Warlocks have strengths and weaknesses just like other classes. Taking away one of their weaknesses is a mistake. IMO.


And if you think about it, Warlocks are more able to get out of a Grapple and especially a Pin than many Wizards or Sorcerers because they have a 3/4 BAB progression instead of a 1/2 BAB progression.

If a player of a Warlock in your campaign is worried about being grappled, you should suggest that he either take the Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple feats (two feats and Dex 13), or that he take a level of Monk to acquire Improved Grapple (must be lawful).

Or even save up for a Ring of Freedom of Movement.

There are current in game ways to minimize this issue for a Warlock without creating a house rule that neuters grappling. Personally, I think this is a non-issue (i.e. you are seeing a problem where one does not exist), just due to the number of times that a Warlock will be grappled in a game. Hardly ever. With a 3/4 BAB, he also has a good chance of getting his Attack of Opportunity in which prevents a grapple attempt anyway (unless his opponent has Improved Grapple).

But, if you do not see this as a problem for a Cleric or Druid who also have 3/4 BAB and almost all spells have a somatic component, you should not see this as a problem for a Warlock either since Warlocks fight with weapons as well as Clerics or Druids. IMO. Either grappling is unbalanced for nearly all classes, or it is not.

 

[sullivan]

EDITED to make Eric's Grandmother stop glaring at me.

I understood the unfair part that he precieves is the "missing" feat of Still Spell-like Ability. It is a feat that would have been easy to overlook adding to the rest of the set since SLA normally don't have a Somatic. Before blazing off a screen filling page maybe check what his intentions are? That way you can at least keep it to a paragraph.

 

[Nifft]

"Still SLA" sounds silly, because of course most SLAs are still.

Call it "Still Invocation" and people won't laugh.

-- N

 

[Caliban]

Sudden Still will work. Once a day.

 

[Diirk]

And even with the Still Spell feat (which takes up a feat slot), only Sorcerers can take real advantage of it. It is not that good of a feat for other spell casters (dedicating a higher level spell slot just in case you are grappled).

That doesn't work so good:

Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

So, no metamagic spells for sorcerors, as by definition they have a casting time of more than 1 standard action.

 

[apesamongus]

Why would you want to make a special grappling exception for Warlocks?

It's not special, wizards and sorcerers can already cast spells while grappled, the fighter still gets the use of all applicable feats and his high HP, a barbarian can still rage, a thief's escape artist is still a class skill, a ranger still gets his favored enemy bonus while grappled.

 

[KarinsDad]

Sudden Still will work. Once a day.

Opps.

Forgot about that.

 

[Particle_Man]

For what it is worth, there is a massive errata document for warlocks that Richard Baker contributes to, on the wotc class and prestige class boards. What comes out of it so far:

Most invocations are S.

The Dead Walk is S or S, M (depending on what duration you want on the zombies/skeletons).

Hideous Blow is S of a special kind. It does not draw an Aoo. It can be used with 2-h weapons (take hand off briefly as free action and return it as free action).

Baleful Utterance and Word of Changing are V, S. (Unless one goes for Sign Language, or the S component creating a small magic mouth that says the word, or something, that follows).

I think that covers all the exceptions. Anyhow, the S component does not cause any chance of spell failure in light armor (like the bard/hexblade ability).

Sudden Still is allowed. My DM is letting me house rule up a Still Spell-like Ability feat. Note that you still have to make a concentration check in a grapple, so the Steady Concentration feat (take 10 on Conc. even if distracted or threatened) from Races of Stone is a nice feat to have.