SW SAGA EDITION: Preview 7

[ValhallaGH]

a grappler with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (humanoids) to use grappled people as impromptu clubs

I see this character made every third game. No matter what system or setting I use, every third game or so I get a character that uses his opponents as his weapons.

I do find it amusing, which is probably why it keeps happening.

 

[RigaMortus2]

In Preview 2, they mention that initiative is now a skill. I guess this means you could be Trained in it, and have Skill Focus in it. That is a +10 right there, before even adding Dex mod and 1/2 character level... Doesn't that seem a bit strong?

Perhaps they will make it so Initiative will be a skill that isn't on any class's list...

 

[ValhallaGH]

In Preview 2, they mention that initiative is now a skill. I guess this means you could be Trained in it, and have Skill Focus in it. That is a +10 right there, before even adding Dex mod and 1/2 character level... Doesn't that seem a bit strong?

Not particularly. Going first has a few advantages but, if you're working as a team, you're likely to end up somewhere around initiative 5 by the end of the third round.
Second, that's a hefty investment of character resources. Either a starting skill selection or a feat to get it as a class skill and then a feat to Skill Focus. There are many other, and generally more important, things to do with those character resources.

It also has the advantage of letting higher level characters have a better chance of reacting first to the start of hostilities. Remember how quickly Obi-Wan reacted in the Cantina?

As for class skills, I'd be surprised if Initiative was a class skill for anyone other than Jedi, Scouts and Soldiers.

Though really, if you want to discuss this in depth then the Preview 2 thread is the place to do so since that's where they talked about skills and the meat of this particular debate is already there, digesting (to continue the metaphor).

 

[Pbartender]

Yep, one staple in all the previous Star Wars RPG's (not the movies, mind you) have been Wookiee melee fighters. Wookiee Soldier with a Vibro-Axe ==> BAD BUSINESS FOR THE OPPOSITION...

Gamorreans, as well...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Things I didn't like about the preview: Looks like acrobatics (aka tumble) is still rolled againast a static DC 15! Boo! Even worse, Rodney said on the WotC boards that it's now DC 15 to tumble *through* an opponents square! Boo, hiss!

Things I liked: Pretty much everything else.


I just *really* wish they'd fixed the static tumble DC thing... it's been around since 3.0 and never been changed. I assume WotC must have a *reason*, but I can't see what it is...

We used a opposed roll mechanic for Concentration and Tumble in one our D&D games, and the end effect was, that it wasn't really worth taking the skills.
The problem is that many opponents have attack bonuses that outstrip your regular skill checks, which means that Tumble is not at all reliable against dangerous enemies.

But this is essentially the only situation in which you really need the skill (against weak opponents, who cares about a AoO that won't hit you or won't deal much damage, anyway?)

There is one exception: If you get a +5 or +10 item for one of these skills, you were on top again. But that doesn't really speak for the method, as it just means that you have to pay 2.500 or 10.000 gp more than a character using the old method.

Static DCs aren't the perfect solution, but if you never feel that you are actually getting better at what you can do with a skill, why bother? And what's with all the people that don't have a skill as class skill or not so many skill points? For them, the skill becomes entirely useless and might as well become a class feature of the classes that have it a a class skill...

 

[RigaMortus2]

Though really, if you want to discuss this in depth then the Preview 2 thread is the place to do so since that's where they talked about skills and the meat of this particular debate is already there, digesting (to continue the metaphor).

I looked for that thread, couldn't find it. I only found threads for Previews 4 - 7.

 

[RigaMortus2]

We used a opposed roll mechanic for Concentration and Tumble in one our D&D games, and the end effect was, that it wasn't really worth taking the skills.
The problem is that many opponents have attack bonuses that outstrip your regular skill checks, which means that Tumble is not at all reliable against dangerous enemies.

I like the idea of the opponent choosing to make an AoO, with your Tumble check as the DC they have to hit. If they miss, they used up an AoO. If they hit, they still use up an AoO, but they deal damage and stop you (in the case of Tumbling through).

 

[Stalker0]

The static tumble DC is just fine, leave it be. This isn't Dnd this is starwars. You don't usually see someone's dex jacked up sky high, or see +5, +10 items on most skills.

In order to never fail, you need a +14 to the check. Assume a nice high dex (18), means we need a +10. IF the person is trained in the skill, they need to be 10th level!! before they automake the check. Also remember, AOOs are a bit scarier in the new game. The game is designed for 1 attack per round, getting an extra one is huge. Also, attacks do more damage and can cause you to take penalties.

Yes, someone can get skill focus...but that's a feat. If someone wants a feat to tumble better, than let them tumble better.

 

[gribble]

The static tumble DC is just fine, leave it be. This isn't Dnd this is starwars.

I can see where you're coming from, and I tend to agree, it's just that the static DC always seemed a bit... off... to me. Why should it be just as easy to get around a big slow lumbering giant as it is to get around, e.g.: a high-dex jedi weapon master?
While 3.5 D&D went some way to making it *better*, it's still essentially just a static DC which doesn't take the speed/reflexes of your opponent into account.

I like the idea of the opponent choosing to make an AoO, with your Tumble check as the DC they have to hit. If they miss, they used up an AoO. If they hit, they still use up an AoO, but they deal damage and stop you (in the case of Tumbling through).

Well, I was kind of hoping for something official in the core rulebook, but this is a nice compromise. The only problem I see with SWSE is that in most cases your acrobatic (tumble) skill modifier is likely to be *lower* than your reflex defence, which makes this tactic kind of suboptimal...

Maybe treat your tumble check result as a one off bonus to your reflex defence? If you roll a result of 15+, thats very likely to make you unhittable anyway...

Of make the DC of the tumble check the reflex defence of your opponent? For most mooks (non-heroics) that will be somewhere between 10 & 15 anyway (making it slightly easier to get around mooks), and for classed opponents it'll be higher... actually, I kind of like that.

Though I guess I should wait and see if they have tweaked the rules at all, before I start houseruling! Maybe there will be something in there that takes my issues into account.

 

[Stalker0]

I can see where you're coming from, and I tend to agree, it's just that the static DC always seemed a bit... off... to me. Why should it be just as easy to get around a big slow lumbering giant as it is to get around, e.g.: a high-dex jedi weapon master?
While 3.5 D&D went some way to making it *better*, it's still essentially just a static DC which doesn't take the speed/reflexes of your opponent into account.

I've had this argument with people many times, and for me it always comes down to this.

What else is tumbling go for? Mechanically, the only real reason to have tumble is to move through opponents and avoid AOOs. So...gaining points in tumbling is the equivalent of me going hard core into this training.

Why should a +1 BAB on an opposed role by just as good at stopping me from tumbling as 1 more point in tumbling help me....when that is ALL it does. That's the key, this is all the skill does. It should be good at at what it does. Anytime you introduce an opposed check your allowing a general ability to compete with a very specific one...and that isn't right imo.