SW SAGA EDITION: Preview 7

[Reaper Steve]

Why should a +1 BAB on an opposed role by just as good at stopping me from tumbling as 1 more point in tumbling help me....when that is ALL it does. That's the key, this is all the skill does. It should be good at at what it does. Anytime you introduce an opposed check your allowing a general ability to compete with a very specific one...and that isn't right imo.

That's a great point. Personally, I like(d) how Iron Heroes handles tumble. First, it gives several uses fo the skill. Second, it makes the 'move through opponent' use an opposed check against the enemy's attack roll...and the enemy gets +5 to the attack. I like the concept, but the +5 penalty is steep. Your argument that an opposed roll against a BAB roll (which requires no skill point investiture) is a strong one that is making me rethink this.

Maybe there's a middle ground, because I do think that a tumbler would have a harder time getting past a skilled combatant. Something should increase the DC of the tumble check, but I don't know what or by how much.

Maybe the DC could be the enemy's reflex defense...if your tumble doesn't beat his reflexes, he gets an AoO.

 

[gribble]

I've had this argument with people many times, and for me it always comes down to this.

Then why is it that pretty much every rogue/scout/monk/mobility-based fighter in D&D has skill ranks in the skill, if it's such a huge investment for such marginal payback? In fact I'd go so far as to say that in most D&D games I've played/run, it's up there in the top 5, if not top 2-3 most taken skills... and why is it that not a single one of those characters bothers to invest more ranks than it takes to get a +14 modifier?

Plus, tumbling around an opponent is no more situational than climbing a wall (and I bet climbers who invest skill ranks in climb don't expect the climb DC of all walls to be 15...)

Besides all that, your argument doesn't hold in SWSE. Skill ratings are 1/2 character level, plus ability mod, plus skill training and skill focus feats, so you don't *need* to specialise/spend anything to increase your tumble ability in SWSE.

Looking at it mechanically in SWSE - against a static DC 15, a character who "invests" in skill training in acrobatics and has a reasonable dex (say 14 for +2), is only going to be failing on a roll of 1 or 2 by 10th level, and thats for tumbling against anyone! A character "investing" in skill focus can say the same at 1st level! Even a totally untrained 10th level character has a better than even chance of tumbling around that dual lightsaber wielding jedi master, reducing his defences!

I like the idea of opposing it with reflex defence - that way it's all but automatic against mooks for anyone "investing" in the skill, and even a higher level opponent is still doable if you're reasonably trained.
Looking at 10th level characters, both with dex 14:
Our tumbler would have +17 skill modifier (+5 skill training, +5 skill focus, +2 dex, +5 level)
Our opponent would have 24 reflex defence (10 +10 level, +2 dex, +2 class bonus)

So our specialist tumbler can still pretty easily get around an equally levelled opponent (needing a dice roll of 7, which more often than not he'll make, and can most likely guarantee by spending a force point).

 

[Baby Samurai]

The full round action definitely still exists in Saga, as Preview 7 has proved. When Luke used Double Attack (attack twice at BAB –5) he could do nothing else that turn.

They have got rid of the 5 ft. step, but replaced it with a new withdraw mechanic: You may withdraw as a Move action at half of your speed, but you must end the withdraw in a non-threatened square.

I could see this bringing the sought after movement to combat I've been looking for. Characters could attack (standard action) then withdraw (move action) to higher ground or what have you and still have a Swift action left.

Also, I see lots of monsters and characters readying and delaying actions until opponents close in and other tactical options.

I think people are worried that if you take a full round action to Double Attack (attack twice at BAB –5) you can do nothing else that turn, not even a 5 ft. step, but I have a feeling in play this could be very cool and cinematic.

I will most likely be porting this over to my D&D campaigns.

 

[Ryngard]

I am really surprised that this close to release that nobody has gotten a copy and started posting info. D&D books are usually found 1-2 weeks early. Come on guys!

 

[Baby Samurai]

I am really surprised that this close to release that nobody has gotten a copy and started posting info. D&D books are usually found 1-2 weeks early. Come on guys!

It was originally scheduled for release today, but I heard it has been postponed till June 5th?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It was originally scheduled for release today, but I heard it has been postponed till June 5th?

I heard the same thing for another book due the same day. Weird... By the way, do postponements actually work when the bookstore websites claim the book is already in stock?

 

[Stalker0]

Then why is it that pretty much every rogue/scout/monk/mobility-based fighter in D&D has skill ranks in the skill, if it's such a huge investment for such marginal payback? In fact I'd go so far as to say that in most D&D games I've played/run, it's up there in the top 5, if not top 2-3 most taken skills... and why is it that not a single one of those characters bothers to invest more ranks than it takes to get a +14 modifier?

Um...because all the classes you mentioned are the ones who would want to move around and avoid AOOs? What's wrong with that? I've played archer rogues that didn't have any tumble, no use for it. I never said that the skill wasn't useful, I said it has a very specific purpose.

And if you only go for a +14 you automake the 15 DC. But what if you have 2 guys, and need a 17 DC? Or want to tumble through someone and need a 25 DC. Chances for failure exist.

Let me put it to you this way. Lets say you have that climber with his +14 ranks...but you as the dm made all the walls require DC 25 climb checks...wouldn't the player have a right to be mad? So how come a tumbler has to constantly toss more ranks in his skill just to be able to do it? In most games, the party isn't going to take on 1st level guys in most fights when they are 10th level.

Just like climb, 15 is the DC for most things but not everything. A +14 in the skill gets you the basics, but it doesn't guarrantee faster tumbling, tumbling through more than one person, tumbling through a square, tumbling over rough terrain etc.

 

[Henry]

Then why is it that pretty much every rogue/scout/monk/mobility-based fighter in D&D has skill ranks in the skill, if it's such a huge investment for such marginal payback? In fact I'd go so far as to say that in most D&D games I've played/run, it's up there in the top 5, if not top 2-3 most taken skills... and why is it that not a single one of those characters bothers to invest more ranks than it takes to get a +14 modifier?

I'd have to say, several of our group in D&D and other games take at least 1 rank in Tumble if they can help it...because the way the skill is worded, even if you fail, you can STILL move through an opponent, whereas without the skill, you simply can't without a messy overrun or bull rush.

 

[Baby Samurai]

I don't know if it has already been mentioned, but another interesting Saga change I came to find out is that you now get Str x 2 when wielding a weapon two-handed, and your Str x 1 on off-hand attacks.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Then why is it that pretty much every rogue/scout/monk/mobility-based fighter in D&D has skill ranks in the skill, if it's such a huge investment for such marginal payback? In fact I'd go so far as to say that in most D&D games I've played/run, it's up there in the top 5, if not top 2-3 most taken skills... and why is it that not a single one of those characters bothers to invest more ranks than it takes to get a +14 modifier?

It only is a huge investment and a marginal payback if you use an opposed roll mechanic. Otherwise it is good. These classes need every help they get to avoid taking damage. And in regular D&D, Tumble really helps you when you need it.