Swift spell as Standard Action?

[Deset Gled]

Other than the rules that says you cannot do this, what balance or other rules issues does this bring up? It just seems silly not to allow it.

Personally, I think that the biggest balancing factor most Swift action (not just spells, but other abilities as well) have is the opportunity cost. The entire purpose of something having a swift action is that it cannot be performed multiple times in a round, and that you have to decide which swift action you will take at the expense of all others. As such, allowing a swift action to be used as a standard action is contrary to the balance, intent, and letter of the rules. You may be able to come up with specific cases where it is not particularly bad, but it is a slippery slope that I would never voluntarily slide down.

 

[irdeggman]

Let's go back to the original post and see if this really helps at all.

I don't think so based on reading the situation.

Let's say you got swallowed and had a Swift action spell to teleport out (Dimensional Leap). Let's further way you missed you Concentration check and wanted to try again as your Standard Action.

Allowable?

If the caster "failed" his concentration check the spell is lost.

So retrying to cast it as a standard action is moot, unless he had memorized 2 quickened Dimensional Leap spells.

What is the spell level of Dimensional Leap? (What/where is the spell anyway?)

Dimension Door is 4th level - quickened is 8th.

So 2 8th level slots are tied up with this spell.

 

[Artoomis]

Personally, I think that the biggest balancing factor most Swift action (not just spells, but other abilities as well) have is the opportunity cost. The entire purpose of something having a swift action is that it cannot be performed multiple times in a round, and that you have to decide which swift action you will take at the expense of all others. As such, allowing a swift action to be used as a standard action is contrary to the balance, intent, and letter of the rules. You may be able to come up with specific cases where it is not particularly bad, but it is a slippery slope that I would never voluntarily slide down.

Actually it seems to me that a Swift action is simply a way to allow a Free Action with some rule that prevent abuse by allowing only one extra such action per round.

 

[Venator]

sigh...

i didnt realize i wasnt clear . i even made multiple posts making sure to be clear.

lets try it again...

No, you can not take multiple swift actions in the same round.

No, you can not take multiple immediate actions in the same round.

If you use a swift action spell / power / ability as a swift action, you should also be able to use a swift action spell / power / ability as a standard action. It only makes sense.

The swift action you are using in place of your standard action is, for all intents and purposes, a standard action. It can only be used when you can use a standard action, and takes up the same action in a round as a standard action.

I do not think it nerfs sorcerers in any way, shape, or form. If anything, i think it more useful to them than it is prepared casters.

It absolutely does "hurt" (not the best word, i agree) the player because he will either be giving up a spell slot of much higher value (quickened) to cast the given spell, or he will be giving up normal standard action options in order to cast it. The player is always trading down here.

The entire arguement presented in this thread revolves around the fact that it simply doesnt make sense for a character to not be able to use something he can normally cast very quickly when he has more than enough time to do so.

Please exaplin to us how its "inconsistent and illogical" to be able to perform a task in 2 second but not twice in 5 seconds. /confused


The best example of the mechanics as written not making sense is Channeled Pyroburst from the PHBII.

If a lvl 10 Wizard (or a Sorcerer) has it memorized twice he can, on the same round, use the first one as a swift action to deal 5d4 fire damage to one target, and use the second one as a standard action and deal 10d6 fire damage to everyone in a 10 foot radius. By RAW he CAN NOT use this second casting to deal 5d4 to one target, because that effect is only produced by the "swift action" version. Thats rediculous. He should absolutely be able to reproduce the effect of that "swift action" cast time on his standard action.

The RAW says he can not stop channeling the Pyroburst on his standard action until its at least been channeled long enough to produce the effects of the standard action. It just doesnt make sense.

If you have the PHBII on you, check out page 106. The name of the spell, the flavor text, and the different effects make it a picture perfect example of why the RAW is flawed here.

 

[Artoomis]

...If the caster "failed" his concentration check the spell is lost.

So retrying to cast it as a standard action is moot, unless he had memorized 2 quickened Dimensional Leap spells.

What is the spell level of Dimensional Leap? (What/where is the spell anyway?)

Dimension Door is 4th level - quickened is 8th.

So 2 8th level slots are tied up with this spell.

Chracter is a Bard. DImensional Leap is a 2nd level Bard spell from Magic of Eberron. It lets you teleport 10' per level (in 10' increments). It's personal plus equipment up to the normal weight limit only.

The bard in question had more than two 2nd level spells available to be cast. He wanted to use up another spell (bacause he lost one in the failed concentration check) to cast Dimensional Leap again.

Seems reasonable, but the rules do not allow it. Other than the statement in the rules that prohibits it, I have not yet heard any good reason not to allow it.

Not that it matters - that ship has sailed for our group. I was kind of hoping that we missed something and the rules allowed it, but, alas, that is not the case.

Oh well..., most likely the "Thrice Martyred" Rudolpho ir Wynarn will come back to save the world.

 

[Canaan]

Perhaps I'm confused, but in the scenario painted by the OP, after failing the concentration check on the swift action, doesn't he still have a standard action left, per the RAW? And if so, why can't he use that standard action to cast a regular teleport? Teleport is a verbal component only spell, so that should work, even while swallowed whole.

 

[Artoomis]

Perhaps I'm confused, but in the scenario painted by the OP, after failing the concentration check on the swift action, doesn't he still have a standard action left, per the RAW? And if so, why can't he use that standard action to cast a regular teleport? Teleport is a verbal component only spell, so that should work, even while swallowed whole.

If he had a Teleport spell available he would have done that.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Anyone who is arguing the "common sense" angle must accept that they are advocating three swift actions per round.

You cannot both argue "common sense" and deny the possibility of a swift-in-place-of-move without contradicting yourself.

 

[Artoomis]

Anyone who is arguing the "common sense" angle must accept that they are advocating three swift actions per round.

You cannot both argue "common sense" and deny the possibility of a swift-in-place-of-move without contradicting yourself.

You can indeed argue "common sense" and ONLY argue that a Swift Action should be usable a second one) in place of a Standard Action. You just have to argue common sense in the context of D&D rules.

1. Nornally, only one spell poer rpound as a Standard Action.
2. A spell with a Swift Action casting time may be cast as a Swift Action - leaving open the possibility of a second spell cast as a Standard Action.
3. Common sense says if you could do it as a Swift Action you ought to be able to do it as a Standard Action instead.

No need for the argument to go any further any get confusing.

 

[Deset Gled]

Please exaplin to us how its "inconsistent and illogical" to be able to perform a task in 2 second but not twice in 5 seconds. /confused.

Two things: 1. Its magic. It doesn't necessarily make sense. 2. Try snapping your fingers. Now try and slow that snap down to 5 seconds. It can't be done. You can spend more or less time setting up your hand, but you cannot slow down the actual snap without giving up the sound.