D&D (2024) Symmetric Balance vs Asymmetric Balance.

[tetrasodium]

None of these issues are rooted in niches not being protected.

A niche needs to exist in a relevant form for it to matter

 

[Emberashh]

A niche needs to exist in a relevant form for it to matter

That doesn't really engage what I said. Those issues don't have anything to do with niches.

 

[tetrasodium]

That doesn't really engage what I said. Those issues don't have anything to do with niches.

Yes it does. You can't have niche protection or even niches to be proud of if the system is designed to devalue them to such an extreme degree....

Or perhaps your unexplained point of contention is one I'm not accurately guessing because you've made no effort to explain it in your last few posts.

 

[Emberashh]

Fisk mode engaged, I suppose.

Hard to feel good about being a tanky type when it's improbable that anyone is capable of feeling squishy

This has nothing to do with niches, and everything to do with bloated HP across the board and the near non-existence of Active Defense as a mechanic.

Hard to feel good about monstrous damage output when it doesn't really matter

Same issue.

Hard to feel excited about your ability to act as a force multiplier for the group with buffs debuffs and control when the monsters are tuned to be pushovers for extreme self inflicted ineptitude stormwind builds & nobody notices it enough to care.

Uh, same issue again, more or less.

Hard to feel awesome for your ability to heal and protect your allies when the most powerful healing spell is a super accessible first level one that is built to exploit bad design in order to maximally nullify damage by providing minimal healing to near unkillable PCs at minimal cost... etc

Huh, same issue.

So I suppose in summary your actual issue is with how the HP system is designed and how it integrated with damage, defense, monster design, and healing.

None of that really has anything to do with niches and is at best only tangential to them.

This is why its important to really get down to whats actually causing the problem, because trying to fix those issues from the perspective of niche protection is just going to result in an incoherent design. Those issues need to be fixed from their own perspectives, without any regard for how Classes interact with them.

Then, if necessary, Classes can be addressed from their own perspective, with the context of the fixed game design reinforcing whatever has to change in that regard, if anything.

 

[tetrasodium]

Fisk mode engaged, I suppose.



This has nothing to do with niches, and everything to do with bloated HP across the board and the near non-existence of Active Defense as a mechanic.



Same issue.



Uh, same issue again, more or less.



Huh, same issue.

So I suppose in summary your actual issue is with how the HP system is designed and how it integrated with damage, defense, monster design, and healing.

None of that really has anything to do with niches and is at best only tangential to them.

This is why its important to really get down to whats actually causing the problem, because trying to fix those issues from the perspective of niche protection is just going to result in an incoherent design. Those issues need to be fixed from their own perspectives, without any regard for how Classes interact with them.

Then, if necessary, Classes can be addressed from their own perspective, with the context of the fixed game design reinforcing whatever has to change in that regard, if anything.

You are tilting at the concept of a windmill and don't have a grasp on windmills or giants .niche protection depends on a foundation of system elements providing it a stable point to build meaning relevant to gameplay m. You can't simply dismiss the cracks in a poisoned Styrofoam foundation because they aren't niche protection itself.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Not in 5e you can't. The design space that they left subclasses is tiny. 5 abilities over 17 levels simply isn't enough to turn a fighter into a ranger or paladin, or a cleric into a paladin. In 3e where you had 10 level prestige classes and could give multiple abilities per level if you wanted, you could theoretically accomplish that goal. I'd still prefer separate classes, but at least you'd get enough differentiation. For 5e, though, you need the different classes.

I disagree. The playtest scout fighter subclass was very cool. Sad it didn't realize, because they ditched other battlemasterlike subclasses.

Look at the 3.0 ranger. What differentiated them from the fighter? Twf at level 1. Favoured enemies at level 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20.

So you just take outlander and TWF fighting style at level 1, use eldritch knight as a base subclass, but with the druid spell list. and just add one favoured enemy every subclass level. Done.
You could even just say: prof number of favoured enemies and thebonus to damage is prof bonus, so you get auto sacling and leave 3 subclass abilities for extra abilities

I know there were prestige classes. But they were just fixes for 3e's shortcommings. Especially when you take the prerequisites, which often forced you to take inferior choices for feats.

 

[Emberashh]

You are tilting at the concept of a windmill and don't have a grasp on windmills or giants .niche protection depends on a foundation of system elements providing it a stable point to build meaning relevant to gameplay m. You can't simply dismiss the cracks in a poisoned Styrofoam foundation because they aren't niche protection itself.

Random, nonsensical analogies aside, please engage what I actually said. You're skirting.

 

[Maxperson]

I disagree. The playtest scout fighter subclass was very cool. Sad it didn't realize, because they ditched other battlemasterlike subclasses.

Look at the 3.0 ranger. What differentiated them from the fighter? Twf at level 1. Favoured enemies at level 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20.

And spellcasting starting at level 4 and improving until you hit level 19. And different skills. And more skill points. And the lack of a ton of bonus feats.

That was in 3.0! Where they realized that they failed to achieve what a ranger is compared to a fighter. So let's go to 3.5 and look at what a ranger gets compared to what a fighter gets.

1. Better saves.
2. Favored enemies.
3. Track skill.
4. Wild Empathy
5. Bonus combat style
6. Endurance
7. Animal Companion
8. Woodland Stride
9. Spellcasting starting at level 4 and improving all the way until level 19
10. Evasion
11. Camouflage
12. Hide in Plain Sight

THAT is what a ranger is compared to a fighter. And the 3.5 fighter still just got a lot of bonus feats. You example where you disagree is an example of where they failed to create a ranger. When they did create a ranger in 3.5, there's no way a subclass can carry all of that.

In 4e the two classes were too different for a subclass to carry the differences. Even in 1e and 2e there were more differences than a subclass gives with 8 differences in 2e.

Also what you are overlooking in 5e is that rangers do not get and should not get the following.

1. Action Surge
2. Action Surge(2)
3. Second Wind
4. Extra Attacks(2)
5. Extra Attacks(3)
6. Indomitable
7. Indomitable(2)
8. Indomitable (3)

Ranger completely fails as a subclass of fighter.

I know there were prestige classes. But they were just fixes for 3e's shortcommings. Especially when you take the prerequisites, which often forced you to take inferior choices for feats.

No. That's not what prestige classes were at all. Prestige classes were what subclasses are. A way to differentiate the PC into a specialty of some sort.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And spellcasting starting at level 4 and improving until you hit level 19. And different skills. And more skill points. And the lack of a ton of bonus feats.

That was in 3.0! Where they realized that they failed to achieve what a ranger is compared to a fighter. So let's go to 3.5 and look at what a ranger gets compared to what a fighter gets.

1. Better saves.
2. Favored enemies.
3. Track skill.
4. Wild Empathy
5. Bonus combat style
6. Endurance
7. Animal Companion
8. Woodland Stride
9. Spellcasting starting at level 4 and improving all the way until level 19
10. Evasion
11. Camouflage
12. Hide in Plain Sight

And d8 hp. You forgot to mention that.

So maybe a rogue subclass?

 

[Maxperson]

And d8 hp. You forgot to mention that.

So maybe a rogue subclass?

Nawp! Same issue. A subclass simply cannot do it in 5e.