D&D (2024) Symmetric Balance vs Asymmetric Balance.

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
More the exception that proves the rule. :) Median height in the US for men is a hair over 5'9", and there have only been 25 players in the entire 75+ year history of the NBA who have been 5'9" or shorter.
Oh, I know. He was just magic to watch(no offense to Magic). It was like he cast a fly spell before every game.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Also true, although I'm definitely in the "Character visualization is more important than balance for modern D&D" camp.
Yeah. I'm in the middle. I want the classes to be clear cut like they are, but I often grant special/new abilities through play as the PCs advance.
 

Gorck

Prince of Dorkness
Niche protection is stupid and an unnecessary constraint when you want the game to be permissive towards people playing what they want to play, and not what the game needs them to play.

And its especially stupid because its a cooperative game and you shouldn't be coming into it from that kind of selfish perspective in the first place. You're not lesser if someone else can do the same thing.
Wait, what? Cooperation in a party stems from characters being specialists in their own field, working together to achieve a common goal. If everyone can do everything, nobody needs to rely on anyone else to achieve that goal and cooperation is not necessary . Thus, niche abilities lead to it being a cooperative game experience .
 
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Wait, what? Cooperation in a party stems from characters being specialists in their own field, working together to achieve a common goal. If everyone can everything, nobody needs to rely on anyone else to achieve that goal and cooperation is not necessary . Thus, niche abilities lead to it being a cooperative game experience .

Thats the issue with balance when you try to give everyone a niche.

A better way is to make the challenges greater than what one person can do alone, regardless of what they do.

This is something Ive learned given my game is about as extreme a power fantasy as it gets short of DC style superheroes. Casual dragon suplexing and soloing entire armies and things like that.

Balance can't come from niches, because niches run counter to the power fantasy.

Balance has to come from the challenges simply being beyond what these highly capable characters can do by themselves.

For me, my game has trended towards higher lethality coupled with a survival emphasis, which are then pitted against challenge design that requires cooperation to overcome, and then evolves as those challenges become soloable.

Facing a dragon is something you eventually come to accomplish as a party by around level 5ish in my game. 5 levels later most could probably solo one, and 5 more levels and you'd have to be really unlucky to get wrecked by one.

But by this point, now those same dragons are effectively the cannon fodder you slay because they're distractions, and not the real threat.

When you eventually grow strong enough to duel an army, its a palpable leap in capability, but very quickly armies are the least of your concerns.

Now does this mean DND should go in that direction? No, it has to solve for its own scope. That can involve more emphasis on lethality and even survival, but I think the primary way DND has to solve it is through monster, weapon, and spell design.

Making each of these areas better, more indepth, and most importantly, integrated with each other will result in an overall game that doesn't need to waste energy trying to foster niches.

Instead, players have a wide variety of tools available to them and its on them to combine their collective abilities in ways that allow them to overcome the monsters.

Consider as another example Breath of the Wild. Link has a lot of tools he can use to succeed in his adventure, and none of them are strictly necessary.

I personally don't even use Shields, and the game doesn't strictly punish me for not using them. I have other means of succeeding in the same challenges.

Equipment breaking is a big stickler for people in BOTW, but one doesn't strictly need to constantly use their equipment.

The chemistry system in tandem with runes allows for a wide variety of ways to succeed that are more equipment efficient. You can wipe an entire Bokoblin camp just by picking up boxes with Magnesis and letting gravity do the work. You can even make many mini-boss fights easy by just waiting for a storm to take advantage of not just your own lightning attacks, but natural lightning strikes. If you can bait them into a puddle or a lake, you don't even need the storm.

These non-hierachical means of success all provide for genuine freedom and release players from the need to worry about whether or not they've written the right formula to be allowed to play and then the right formula to be allowed to succeed.

Instead, they just play, and they find the formula to success by playing.

In a lot of ways, its the same underlying reason why I found removing to-hit mechanics to be the best solution to speeding up combat, because it removes the extraneous overhead that just gets in the way of the actual gameplay rather than adding to it.
 

This underscores what I think is the driving force behind concerns about the power and utility of the wizard compared to other classes, particularly the fighter: the edition by edition erosion of basic limits on the wizard. From much shorter spell lists to limits of spells known and chance of failure to learn spells, to a relatively small number of spells per day, the wizard has historically been subject to a lot of limitations on their power. Most of those limitations have been stripped away in the name of fun and playability, and the result is a class whose only weakness is a slightly lower hp total. To be fair, 5E did concentration right, but bring back a few of those other limitations and wizards won't look so good.
Though some of those were bad balance tools even back in the day; "chance to learn spells" was one of those things that might have balanced MUs over-all, but it did so at the price of having favored and unfavored characters; i.e. if you made the rolls you were still overpowered, where someone who didn't was sometimes so lacking in useful support and combat capability that you'd wonder why the party went out with them. Baking that much swing in one-time rolls has not been a virtue in any place I've seen it, no matter what other benefits it provided.
I think many of those limits were pretty unfun (or really DM/dice dependent, or level-played dependent). However, they could have been replaced with other limits. Or everyone else could have been brought up at the same time as these limits were stripped away. Or at the very least new constraints didn't have to be added to the other classes. 3E's single attack after moving is an obvious example, but also fighters having the best saves, good OOC skill progression, and access to much of the best magic items.
 

Reynard

Legend
You might as well just go classless at that point and just buy various abilities with some sort of metacurrency. Many classes is a staple of D&D and I wouldn't want to see that go away.
Four classes --arguably 3 -- are staples of D&D fantasy. The rest you can do with "package deals" or whatever. There is a world of space between complete point buy GURPS model and rigid 5E class structure.
 

Gorck

Prince of Dorkness
Thats the issue with balance when you try to give everyone a niche.

A better way is to make the challenges greater than what one person can do alone, regardless of what they do.

This is something Ive learned given my game is about as extreme a power fantasy as it gets short of DC style superheroes. Casual dragon suplexing and soloing entire armies and things like that.

Balance can't come from niches, because niches run counter to the power fantasy.

Balance has to come from the challenges simply being beyond what these highly capable characters can do by themselves.

For me, my game has trended towards higher lethality coupled with a survival emphasis, which are then pitted against challenge design that requires cooperation to overcome, and then evolves as those challenges become soloable.

Facing a dragon is something you eventually come to accomplish as a party by around level 5ish in my game. 5 levels later most could probably solo one, and 5 more levels and you'd have to be really unlucky to get wrecked by one.

But by this point, now those same dragons are effectively the cannon fodder you slay because they're distractions, and not the real threat.

When you eventually grow strong enough to duel an army, its a palpable leap in capability, but very quickly armies are the least of your concerns.

Now does this mean DND should go in that direction? No, it has to solve for its own scope. That can involve more emphasis on lethality and even survival, but I think the primary way DND has to solve it is through monster, weapon, and spell design.

Making each of these areas better, more indepth, and most importantly, integrated with each other will result in an overall game that doesn't need to waste energy trying to foster niches.

Instead, players have a wide variety of tools available to them and its on them to combine their collective abilities in ways that allow them to overcome the monsters.

Consider as another example Breath of the Wild. Link has a lot of tools he can use to succeed in his adventure, and none of them are strictly necessary.

I personally don't even use Shields, and the game doesn't strictly punish me for not using them. I have other means of succeeding in the same challenges.

Equipment breaking is a big stickler for people in BOTW, but one doesn't strictly need to constantly use their equipment.

The chemistry system in tandem with runes allows for a wide variety of ways to succeed that are more equipment efficient. You can wipe an entire Bokoblin camp just by picking up boxes with Magnesis and letting gravity do the work. You can even make many mini-boss fights easy by just waiting for a storm to take advantage of not just your own lightning attacks, but natural lightning strikes. If you can bait them into a puddle or a lake, you don't even need the storm.

These non-hierachical means of success all provide for genuine freedom and release players from the need to worry about whether or not they've written the right formula to be allowed to play and then the right formula to be allowed to succeed.

Instead, they just play, and they find the formula to success by playing.

In a lot of ways, its the same underlying reason why I found removing to-hit mechanics to be the best solution to speeding up combat, because it removes the extraneous overhead that just gets in the way of the actual gameplay rather than adding to it.
Wow, that’s a lot of words to say . . . I’m not really sure what, to be honest. I’m not certain that bringing up your own D&D knockoff contributes much to our One D&D discussion. Also, I’ve never played Breath of the Wind, so that segment didn’t really land with me. But I do know it’s a 1 player game, so it doesn’t really apply to my argument that niche protection leads to cooperation.

I will say, I can’t help thinking about heist movies (maybe because of KftGV). Take a movie like Ocean’s Eleven: if Danny Ocean is good at acrobatics, they wouldn’t have needed The Amazing Yen. If Rusty Ryan knew about explosives, they wouldn’t have needed Basher Tarr. But each member had their pros (niches) and cons that allowed them to pull off the heist when they worked together (cooperation).

EDIT: spoiler alert for a 22 year old movie
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
Niches and niche protection can be an issue even between two characters of the same class. In my Brotherhood of Rangers game (3.5e with gestalt characters), the party has two fighter-ranger gestalt characters. One was a greatsword-wielding melee guy, while the other tried to be both a good bowman and a good swordsman - and this split focus caused problems. So the player and I did a few tweeks to turn the character into the party's supreme bowman - and that fixed the issues.

More generally, the game works for my group because while the characters are all gestalt rangers (and thus all able to do ranger-things) they also have niches from their non-ranger class - wizard, cleric, rogue, and two fighters.

My experience is that it isn't good when only the niche-guy can do niche-things, and that it's better when the niche-guy shines in his niche while everyone else is still able to contribute their mite.
this is the reason i really think we need to dial back the attitude of 'X can't do [thing], that's Y's niche' especially with the martials, like, i've been told before that the fighter shouldn't be able to have a climb speed because 'climbing is a rogue thing,' im sorry but what!?

i think martials design tools should have significantly more overlap in shared abilities but with specific quirks to distinguish them for their specific classes, for example maybe rogues have advantage on stealth checks while climbing, fighters are the only ones who can climb in heavy armour, monks have greater climbspeeds and can latch onto a wall without a check if they jump onto it, rangers can perch themselves on the sheer surface and make ranged attacks from there(checks to not fall if they take damage)

expertise, fighting styles, unarmoured defense, reliable talent, unique and improved movement options, rage, martial maneuvres, sneak attack, improved unarmed strikes, cunning action(variants), these are all things that i think that all martials should be able to have in their build design, made unique and flavourful to the class in their specific manifestations, one class can be notably better at any of these things (rogue sneak attack, fighter maneuvres, monk unarmed strikes ect...) but that shouldn't mean no-one else gets barely any access them at all, compare and contrast to how like, the cleric is the best at healing but that doesn't mean no-one else gets cure wounds.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
this is the reason i really think we need to dial back the attitude of 'X can't do [thing], that's Y's niche' especially with the martials, like, i've been told before that the fighter shouldn't be able to have a climb speed because 'climbing is a rogue thing,' im sorry but what!?

i think martials design tools should have significantly more overlap in shared abilities but with specific quirks to distinguish them for their specific classes, for example maybe rogues have advantage on stealth checks while climbing, fighters are the only ones who can climb in heavy armour, monks have greater climbspeeds and can latch onto a wall without a check if they jump onto it, rangers can perch themselves on the sheer surface and make ranged attacks from there(checks to not fall if they take damage)

expertise, fighting styles, unarmoured defense, reliable talent, unique and improved movement options, rage, martial maneuvres, sneak attack, improved unarmed strikes, cunning action(variants), these are all things that i think that all martials should be able to have in their build design, made unique and flavourful to the class in their specific manifestations, one class can be notably better at any of these things (rogue sneak attack, fighter maneuvres, monk unarmed strikes ect...) but that shouldn't mean no-one else gets barely any access them at all, compare and contrast to how like, the cleric is the best at healing but that doesn't mean no-one else gets cure wounds.
The root cause of overlap in the post you quoted sounds to be the fact that there are a bunch of gestalt rangers... I think you are overlooking the absurdity of 3.5 gestalt. Gestalt was getting a level in two classes each time you level & was broken AF, of course there is going to be insane levels of overlap
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
The root cause of overlap in the post you quoted sounds to be the fact that there are a bunch of gestalt rangers... I think you are overlooking the absurdity of 3.5 gestalt. Gestalt was getting a level in two classes each time you level & was broken AF, of course there is going to be insane levels of overlap
i realised the post i replied to was about a team of gestalt rangers but i don't think that doesn't mean the point i was springboarding off of it isn't still valid, you can have large amounts of crossover in shared class abilities while still making the classes built using those abilities unique and thematic, especially if you give each class's version of those abilities their own spin on it, and of course the abilities that are class exclusive on top of that.
 

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