D&D General Tech in DnD; What should be included and how much is too much? (+)

[Hriston]

As I recently found out, the Greyhawk book has the arquebus listed on a table.

Are you talking about Supplement I? I must have missed that. Any idea which table?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No doubt, cross-pulp genre pollination is in the DNA of D&D. In the original D&D random monster tables there’s even a table for encounters in Barsoom, a setting in which firearms are ubiquitous. Nevertheless, the rules for PC creation and equipment pretty strongly typify them as characters of medieval fantasy. You can't really play John Carter, for instance, because you can't buy a rifle.

I guess my position is: Sure, the absolute earliest days were like that.

And then within six years of release, you had aliens, flying saucers, power armor, and laser guns, in one of the most widely-played and famous adventures of all time.

Like, the game may have started out in that spot, but it evolved into a different spot (one where tech is a possibility, even if it isn't a focus) very quickly. Just like how Chainmail evolved very quickly from using units, whose "Hit Points" were very literally "how many of your men can be hit before that unit loses combat effectiveness," to using those exact same rules to represent single combatants duking it out with one another in small-unit combat.

The same pattern has held in pretty much every edition since. Firearm rules often aren't included early on, but either get added, or are present in DM-facing books initially and then show up in (at least partially) player-facing supplements later.

 

[Azzy]

Are you talking about Supplement I?

Yep.

I must have missed that. Any idea which table?

It's under Alternative Combat System, pages 13-14.

 

[Hriston]

Yep.


It's under Alternative Combat System, pages 13-14.

Ah, the weapon vs armor class table! This table was converted from Chainmail, retaining the arquebus in the missile weapon section. It just underscores the point that although OD&D has rules for firearms, they don't appear in the list of basic equipment to which a PC is supposed to have access. So although they exist in a world with firearms, D&D PCs are meant to be heroes of fantasy fiction who don't use them. Alternatively, it's an omission, and the arquebus should be added to the equipment list.

 

[Hriston]

I guess my position is: Sure, the absolute earliest days were like that.

And then within six years of release, you had aliens, flying saucers, power armor, and laser guns, in one of the most widely-played and famous adventures of all time.

Like, the game may have started out in that spot, but it evolved into a different spot (one where tech is a possibility, even if it isn't a focus) very quickly. Just like how Chainmail evolved very quickly from using units, whose "Hit Points" were very literally "how many of your men can be hit before that unit loses combat effectiveness," to using those exact same rules to represent single combatants duking it out with one another in small-unit combat.

The same pattern has held in pretty much every edition since. Firearm rules often aren't included early on, but either get added, or are present in DM-facing books initially and then show up in (at least partially) player-facing supplements later.

Yeah, I don't think we're too far apart on this. I was just pointing out the pattern I'm noticing which is that firearm rules were definitely included from the very beginning in the form of late-medieval levels of technology, but for whatever reason, whether by omission or intent, they seem to have been specifically excluded from the PC-build rules. You also have the situation from the beginning where DMs are encouraged to introduce content from pulp genres outside of medieval fantasy. To me, this gives the impression of a game in which the PCs are rooted in medieval fantasy while, for the sake of variety, the setting is more malleable genre-wise. I don't think this basic dynamic has really changed over time. For instance, getting back to the Barsoom example, I don't think any edition has given rules for playing a green martian, Although some PC races might have come close, I think there's a basic precondition that a PC race needs to be compatible with a medieval fantasy setting. And, as I posted up-thread, I think it would be in keeping with this dynamic and not upset things too much for late medieval levels of technology like the arquebus to be included in the PC creation rules as a minimum because the default setting options already include the late medieval as a valid choice.

 

[James Gasik]

Yeah, I don't think we're too far apart on this. I was just pointing out the pattern I'm noticing which is that firearm rules were definitely included from the very beginning in the form of late-medieval levels of technology, but for whatever reason, whether by omission or intent, they seem to have been specifically excluded from the PC-build rules. You also have the situation from the beginning where DMs are encouraged to introduce content from pulp genres outside of medieval fantasy. To me, this gives the impression of a game in which the PCs are rooted in medieval fantasy while, for the sake of variety, the setting is more malleable genre-wise. I don't think this basic dynamic has really changed over time. For instance, getting back to the Barsoom example, I don't think any edition has given rules for playing a green martian, Although some PC races might have come close, I think there's a basic precondition that a PC race needs to be compatible with a medieval fantasy setting. And, as I posted up-thread, I think it would be in keeping with this dynamic and not upset things too much for late medieval levels of technology like the arquebus to be included in the PC creation rules as a minimum because the default setting options already include the late medieval as a valid choice.

Maybe not Green Martians, but some things found their way into D&D, like the fierce White Ape.

 

[Hriston]

Maybe not Green Martians, but some things found their way into D&D, like the fierce White Ape.

I was specifically talking about PC race options. White apes appear on the "Optional Arid Planes" table in Volume 3 of OD&D along with other fauna of Barsoom as well as Tharks, which is a particular horde of green martians. This is an example of the greater latitude given to the DM from the beginning in selecting from among the pulp genres as compared to players who are limited to medieval fantasy.

 

[Tonguez]

Maybe not Green Martians, but some things found their way into D&D, like the fierce White Ape.

I’m seem to remember some four-armed giants too - was that in Dark Sun?

The Arquebus has been dnd from the beginning, so to discount it seems a bit off, guns were never ubiquitous but they were an option for DMs if they wanted cannon in their canon. Just like the real world where guns have been a thing since the 1300s, but it was 100 years later in 1421 Battle of Kutna Hira that entire companies of Infantry were equipped with hand canons (pistala). I’ve played in a setting where Imperial Law makes Cannons are exclusive to the Royal Navy and otherwise illegal. As an alchemist I had to get special permission (and do work for the Navy) to even make fireworks.
So just make guns really expensive and restricted in who can own one.

 

[Parmandur]

It depends on the Setting. I appreciate the pseudo-Medieval default Setting as having it's own genre integrity, bit I would love a 5E Urban Arcana book that brought D&D to a present day world.

 

[Parmandur]

Yeah, I don't think we're too far apart on this. I was just pointing out the pattern I'm noticing which is that firearm rules were definitely included from the very beginning in the form of late-medieval levels of technology, but for whatever reason, whether by omission or intent, they seem to have been specifically excluded from the PC-build rules. You also have the situation from the beginning where DMs are encouraged to introduce content from pulp genres outside of medieval fantasy. To me, this gives the impression of a game in which the PCs are rooted in medieval fantasy while, for the sake of variety, the setting is more malleable genre-wise. I don't think this basic dynamic has really changed over time. For instance, getting back to the Barsoom example, I don't think any edition has given rules for playing a green martian, Although some PC races might have come close, I think there's a basic precondition that a PC race needs to be compatible with a medieval fantasy setting. And, as I posted up-thread, I think it would be in keeping with this dynamic and not upset things too much for late medieval levels of technology like the arquebus to be included in the PC creation rules as a minimum because the default setting options already include the late medieval as a valid choice.

Maybe I'm mistaken what the Green Martians are, but isn't that what the Thri-Kreen as seen in Spelljammer are?