Technomagicon: Craft Skill (v2) & Ordinary People (v4) [Updated 06Jul08]

malcolm_n

Adventurer
Not to say it's bad, but convoluted and very busy. In fairness, you've put a lot of work into it; and that's always great to see. I guess I'm just worried that others will have to put in an equal amount of work to understand and use it.

Granted, this is just upon reading it, so please don't take my opinion as gospel; just a note to keep in mind.
 

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EnglishScribe

First Post
Not to say it's bad, but convoluted and very busy. In fairness, you've put a lot of work into it; and that's always great to see. I guess I'm just worried that others will have to put in an equal amount of work to understand and use it.

Granted, this is just upon reading it, so please don't take my opinion as gospel; just a note to keep in mind.

Malcolm, you took the time to post, so your opinion is valuable to me.

I'm not sure I am following your feedback, which parts in particular did you find convoluted?

The craft mechanics is in essence a skill challenge, with the details of the item being crafted setting the complexity and level of the challenge. The only real addition onto the standard skill challenge mechanics is the complexity sets the time between individual skill checks.
 

malcolm_n

Adventurer
I'll give it a more serious read a little later and get back to you. Maybe I was just overtaken by the sheer volume of work? :) I'll let you know.
 


darkrose50

First Post
Yep, work, gets in the way of all the fun stuff :D (As EnglishScribe looks over his shoulder to make sure that no one in the office is paying any attention)


Is there a chance of writing economic rules? Auction houses, magic item agents, pawn shops? I would love to see your takes on revising the sell magical items for 20% of there crafting value rule.

 


EnglishScribe

First Post
Non-Combat Roles

My current thoughts on non-combat roles:

Role: Seeker
A seeker strives to find or uncover things.

Academic: Researcher
Creative: Discoveries
Environmental: Scout
Metaphysical: Seer/Prophet
Physical: Personal Excellence
Social: Investigator

Role: Educator
An educator strives to pass on knowledge

Academic: Teacher
Creative: Master
Environmental: Ecologist
Metaphysical: Master
Physical: Drill Master
Social: Mentor

Role: Provider
A provider strives to increase the availability of resources.

Academic: Finance
Creative: Farmer, Cook
Environmental: Fisher
Metaphysical: Artificer
Physical: Peace Keeper
Social: Trader

Role: Agitator
An agitator strives to influence the opinions of other people

Academic: Author
Creative: Futurist
Environmental: Ecowarrior
Metaphysical: Leader
Physical: Body Guard
Social: Performer, Polititian
 
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megasycophant

First Post
I have a similar concern to what others have expressed. Perhaps I should keep it to myself, but there seems like too much thoughtful effort here to just pass it by.

My first contention would be that you'll blow game balance all to hell, since (let's face it) 4E is a combat-oriented system. The skills alone would probably have this effect (using non-combat trained skills), but then to spend feats?

Secondly, it seems you're suffering from "swiss army knife" syndrome. 4E play is not intended to do these things, 4E as a system is not designed for this. Why not stick with 3.x or some other less combat-oriented, more skill-oriented system?

My suggestion would be, if you must do this in 4E, to create some sort of parallel or secondary system (the point of differentiation being whether these sorts of 'skills' are dependent on/affected by primary skills). This way, game balance will be maintained while adding the flavor you desire.

EDIT: The argument that these feats will only be of interest to NPCs doesn't hold water, either, as I see it. That's pre-4E thinking. NPCs in general won't (shouldn't?) be developed as 'leveled' PCs would be. Seems the 4E way to address these would be to create a template or just new 'monster type's as necessary (whaddya call that?), giving educators, etc such abilities. (If you can't just Rule 0 it.)
 
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EnglishScribe

First Post
I disagree that the 4E framework cannot support this. I value your concerns, although I would appriciate knowing if there anything in detail that you object to.

I suggest that 4E is a combat orientated game as written purely because it lacks creative and academic type skills, non-combat roles, and a progression for an ordinary person to become a hero, for example. I like a lot of the mechanics behind 4E, but I think, and my players agree, that it feels a bit like 'Fisher Price My First Roleplaying Game'. Combat in the games I run accounts for less than 10% of the time where as creative, investigative and social skill use accounts for 50% or more as this is woven inseparably into the roleplaying. If my players like this type of roleplaying, why should I have to tell them otherwise?

(Judging from the 2000+ downloads I suspect that at least some of the readers of this thread agree with me)

If 4E is going to support playing styles beyond the 'Monster of the Week' syndrome I believe that it needs an optional depth. 4E as written in my opinion is very good at telling me that a character can kill, but very poor at telling me what a character can do.

Again, I value your feedback. You mention basing the new skills on existing 'primary' skills. I did consider a similar mechanism, but could find no existing skills that where even vaguely suitable - do you have any suggestions?
 

megasycophant

First Post
I disagree that the 4E framework cannot support this. I value your concerns, although I would appriciate knowing if there anything in detail that you object to.
On the balance issue, I would think it's clear. Frex, a 10th level combat encounter assumes players have powers/feats/etc at 10th level. If they've spent these on features not useful in that context, then they're not as powerful as a characters of their levels are expected to be, and then it's not a balanced encounter.

I suggest that 4E is a combat orientated game as written purely because it lacks creative and academic type skills, non-combat roles, and a progression for an ordinary person to become a hero, for example.
I'll agree wholeheartedly with that, though I submit this is by design, not omission.

I like a lot of the mechanics behind 4E, but I think, and my players agree, that it feels a bit like 'Fisher Price My First Roleplaying Game'. Combat in the games I run accounts for less than 10% of the time where as creative, investigative and social skill use accounts for 50% or more as this is woven inseparably into the roleplaying. If my players like this type of roleplaying, why should I have to tell them otherwise?
You shouldn't of course, but then if combat in the games you play is less than 10% of the experience, why play "a combat orientated game [system]"? Seriously, have you considered this? There are a plethora of good systems out there which are more role-playing oriented.

(Judging from the 2000+ downloads I suspect that at least some of the readers of this thread agree with me)
Volume is a spurious argument. Just because the entire town drags a witch to the stake, that doesn't make her a witch. ;) BTW, I'm one of those 2000+.

If 4E is going to support playing styles beyond the 'Monster of the Week' syndrome I believe that it needs an optional depth.
Again, I agree. I just don't think it ever will, or can, without making changes so significant that it's no longer the same game. The resultant system may well be spectacular, but it wouldn't be 4E, leading back to my "different system" argument.

Again, I value your feedback. You mention basing the new skills on existing 'primary' skills. I did consider a similar mechanism, but could find no existing skills that where even vaguely suitable - do you have any suggestions?
And I'm trying to be constructive (believe it or not :p). I think the only way to maintain game balance is for PCs to still have the same pallette of skills/feats/etc with something like this tagged on. I can understand the dilemma in finding suitable primary skills (and now I'm realizing I didn't quite think that one through, this is a tough project). The only thing I can think of off the top of my head would be to give synergy bonuses a la 3.x for trained skills such as Dungeoneering, Arcana, etc that seem applicable to the secondary skill in question.
 

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