Teleport and Initiative

[shilsen]

I'm obviously (to you, anyways) one of the players involved, but I'm fairly certain that the Teleportation occurs as the surprise round's partial action, and then everyone rolls initiative to see who gets to perform their first actual actions. I can't decide if the attackers are ready and the defenders are flat-footed, or if both sides are flat-footed until their initiative, though. I can see rationale for both sides.

That's how I'd do it. As for being flat-footed until one's initiative comes up, I would apply that to both groups.

 

[Thanee]

Preparations can be made (the time available for those is unknown to the bad guys of course), but as soon as the teleport goes off, initiative should be rolled for all that are aware (which are probably all involved here) and combat starts normally. Noone should have an advantage, which would allow readying actions or acting immediately after arrival. That's definitely the most fair solution.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Tyreus]

(I play the 2 mages in question.) How do they know I'm coming? If their just suspicous, then I will be holding action every second of every day from now on. The surprise round can't be me casting the teleport, because while I'm casting it, theirs no one to surprise. I cast the spell, then poof I'm there. This is the time when I believe I should get a surprise round, because they aren't expecting me. (right?) Were they expecting an attack last time I scried? If all of a sudden theres two people 120 ft behind you, don't they get to act first?

 

[Keith]

I think Thanne, and dcollins earlier, are exactly right. These arguments always come up about “I was expecting trouble”, or “I was waiting for the enemy”...but those types of preparations or general qualities are already implicit in the initiative system. No matter how much you are expecting someone, reflexes (and some luck) determine which of two foes presented suddenly with each other will act first. Arriving by teleport is just another way of arriving suddenly, not a way to react faster once you do.

None of the combatants can ready anything beforehand, as there is no encounter in progress, thus no readying, a combat action that occurs only after initiative. This is definitely, to me, a simple case of rolling initiative as the encounter starts- which is after combatants arrive in the same place, teleported or otherwise.

Cheers

 

[Keith]

“If all of a sudden there are two people 120 ft behind you, don't they get to act first?”

No. That is the bottom line- they don’t necessarily get to go first by virtue of arriving suddenly. It might be surprise, but not certainly. As there is no facing in the game, it is assumed that people are glancing around, or moving about, I guess. So, how would you end up behind them? The DM could introduce some system to determine which way people are looking at any given time for situations like this. Why bother, though? It will just get turned around on PCs at some point. Better to think of that type of alertness as being included in the initiative system, I think.

 

[Fieari]

“If all of a sudden there are two people 120 ft behind you, don't they get to act first?”

No. That is the bottom line- they don’t necessarily get to go first by virtue of arriving suddenly. It might be surprise, but not certainly. As there is no facing in the game, it is assumed that people are glancing around, or moving about, I guess. So, how would you end up behind them? The DM could introduce some system to determine which way people are looking at any given time for situations like this. Why bother, though? It will just get turned around on PCs at some point. Better to think of that type of alertness as being included in the initiative system, I think.

Well, obviously it would be turned against the PCs at one point, because both sides consist of PCs throughout this entire game.

I ruled that although they detected the scry, they had no real way of knowing when the attack would come exactly, and while they had battle plans in mind, they were also concentrating on other things... directing troops being the primary thing. So I gave the intruders a surprise round. Damage was dealt in the surprise round, but saving throws were made and Finger of Death did not kill anyone (though it hurt like the dickons, I'm sure).

Future teleports might not work the same way... this was a special case.

As to facing... well, me, I like having to think about facing. It just seems WRONG to me that someone can be giving equal attention to all areas around them.

 

[Tyreus]

“If all of a sudden there are two people 120 ft behind you, don't they get to act first?”

No. That is the bottom line- they don’t necessarily get to go first by virtue of arriving suddenly. It might be surprise, but not certainly. As there is no facing in the game, it is assumed that people are glancing around, or moving about, I guess. So, how would you end up behind them? The DM could introduce some system to determine which way people are looking at any given time for situations like this. Why bother, though? It will just get turned around on PCs at some point. Better to think of that type of alertness as being included in the initiative system, I think.

I scried upon them, I knew where they were. I knew exactly where I was teleporting and what I was going to do when I got there. While I was doing a predetermined action, the dragon had to think of what to do. That's what initiative is. I can't see the reasoning in this situation not being a surprise round.

 

[DragonOfIntellect]

Sounds to me as if the Evil PCs in question were specifically readying themselves for imminent combat. I agree with others here that neither side has an implicit advantage, therefore no surprise round should occur, and initiative should be rolled as normal.

 

[James McMurray]

Look at it as if you did get a surprise round, but you used it to cast Teleport. Doing it any other way makes Buff / Scry / Teleport even more powerful and game shattering than it already is.

 

[Thanee]

Tyreus. Yes, you have seen the scene through a scry spell, but that's a little different from actually being there.

Once you arrive, you will be noticed (pretty obvious) and then it's a matter of reaction time, who gets to act first.

If noone had detected the scrying sensor, then sure, you would get that surprise round, but they are aware and expecting trouble (scry-teleport is such a common tactic, everyone would expect it upon noticing that sensor) and therefore have the same chance to act first as you do, when the encounter starts with your arrival. No surprise round.

You already have a huge advantage, since you can choose the moment when you teleport and prepare accordingly, the others will have to guess; there is no need to further enhance this advantage by granting a surprise round everytime you teleport somewhere. That would be a bit too easy, really.

BTW, changing locations via teleport should be slightly disorienting at least.

Bye
Thanee