Tell me about various Supers RPG systems

AFGNCAAP

First Post
I figured this would be a good place to ask.

I'd like to know about the various supers-based RPGs that are out there & still in print (both mainstream & indy).

Currently I run a Marvel SAGA campaign, set in an alternate Marvel Universe. However, I was thinking of creating another supers game, using a totally homebrewed supers setting, and though I could use Marvel SAGA for it, i was wondering what other options are out there.

What I'd like to know about each game system is:
  • Start-Up Cost: What I will need at minimum to play the game.
  • Expanded Cost: What other materials will I need to get (like supplements that provide new classes/powers/skills/etc.) beyond the core materials.
  • Style of System: Is it class & level-based? Point-based? etc. How do characters improve/advance in the game?
  • Ease of System: Is it a pick up & play style game, or do you have to invest time to build characters & adventures?
  • Range of Power: Is it good nly for street-level heroes or only top-tier supers? Does it have a really hard time replacating magic item users or power-suit wearers? Is it possible to build almost any concept, or are certain things purely out of scope of the system (Superman, Green Lantern, Thor, etc.)?
  • Setting: Is it generic overall (just supers) or does it specifically go for a certain style of supers setting (DC, Marvel, City of Heroes, etc.).
  • Potential: Is it really good at protraying the over-the-top action/potential of comics, or does the system make it that certain things Just Can Not Be Done?

I'd appreciate all of the info you can provide. I'm not looking for a sales pitch or generic buyer review for a specific game, but rather an informed review of "this is the game, & it does this...".
 

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Well let me be the first in to plug HERO system. Although I'm sure there will be others.

Start Up Cost: well you can do it with just the BBB (Big Black Book). Not sure what the cost is in the US but here in Oz it set me back about $100. It's about 500 pages. But this is just a rule book, mechanics only, no flavour. But it does have all the rules you need and you can build everything with this. Rules for building super powers from the ground up. Rules for vehicles, bases, martial arts, all the stuff of supers. It is also meant as a generic, universal system. So there is space dedicated to rules you may not be interested in. For flavour you will need supplements. You can also just haunt the HERO System boards to get an idea about what is in the Champions Universe, which is free. (That's what I do.)

Supplements: You don't NEED any. In theory everything in the supplements can be built using the mechanics as set out in the BBB. And I'd say 99% of the time that's true. One notable exception is martial arts. The mechanics behind these not set out in the BBB (they may be covered the Martial Arts supplement, I haven't read the new one but they were covered in a previous edition.) Getting back on topic, you don't NEED any supplements but they sure do help. And the fact that the supplements are all very good makes getting them that much more attractive. You can see new ways of bending and shaping the system. And the supplements cover pretty much everything. From NPCs and organisations (I love the VIPER supplement so much it's a little bit wrong), to different genres (Pulp, fantasy, Sci-fi) to vehicles to books dedicated to specific types of characters (the Ultimate Brick and the Ultimate Martial Artist for instance.)

Style: Points based. Experience is doled out in character points, characters go up in power by spending them on their powers, stats, base, followers, etc. They can save up to buy bigger stuff or just spend it in dribs and drabs. When designing characters initially you can get more points by taking disadvantages (classics like vulnerability to fire or being hideously mutated, social disads, physical disads, psychological disads.) In fact the system strongly encourages disads. and role playing with them.

Ease of system. Easy it aint. This is because it is attempting to be universal and flexible and because it is very granular. VERY granular. The character design can be extremely complicated if the player so desires. It doesn't have to be. And to begin with I think everyone would benefit from playing simple characters. Bricks and flying energy projectors are simple enough. Get more complex as system mastery increases. But if you wanted advice on more complex builds put a request on the HERO forums. You should have a dozen or so various builds within a few hours. These HERO system players are crazy.

As for the actual play: When I was first introduced to it years ago my friend said it was a great system to encourage role playing, because the combat system is so difficult to use. :eek: I think that's an overstatement, but not by that much. It is pretty complex but this is enables a great deal more flexibility. Which I guess is the trade off. On the plus side it's much more consistent and better set out than, say, D20.

Range of Power. This is where it shines. You can do anything. Usually in several different ways. Power suits? Check. Magic? Check. Street Level?Check. Galactic Heroes? Check (there's even supplements for all these things.) But you have to dedicate the time to learning the system well enough to be able to make it do these things. (or buy the supplements of course but who has all this money I ask you?) And it all scales pretty well. Something to note: Unlike most other systems the powers are not defined by special effect (there is no section on fire powers for instance) but by mechanic. You would buy a flaming sword as (for instance) an Energy Attack with no range and define it as a 'flaming sword'. Someone else could by a 'light sabre' for exactly the same point cost and just define it as 'plasma' or whatever. This means that players usually need to know what they want to play before sitting down to design the character.

Setting: I believe City of Heroes is in the the MMO for HERO. But I could be wrong. There are plenty of supplement books that define the 'official' Champions-verse. (both old and new, the previous editions are similar enough that you can use characters from them without much mucking about.) But the BBB is generic. You can set the game anywhere you like. Friends of mine just finished playing a Marvel Mutants campaign. I've been designing a hi-tech game set in something resembling the Bubble Gum Crisis -verse.

Potential: Again this is where it's great. You can punch someone through a wall, lift a battle ship, fly across the galaxy in mere hours, spin a web any size etc. A couple of flaws that come to mind: electricty. It's a bit of a common whinge among HERO players that to design a character with realistic electrical powers just costs TOO many points. (it's the cost of making a power conductive you see.) And common weapons like machine guns, tanks, missiles, etc are all pretty darn deadly for the suggested starting power level. Of course you can just let the players have more points.

hope this helps. If there's anything you would like me to expand on just ask.

cheers,
Glen
 

I'm currently a player in a Mutants and Masterminds game.

Start-Up Cost: I'm guessing this is enough.
Expanded Cost: We only play with the main book. The DM has the Freedom City campaign setting (which you won't need if you homebrew).
Style of System: It's a point-based game. The DM decides the Power Level of the game (1-20) and you get 15 points per Level to spend on stats, skills, feats and powers. Pretty straight-forward.
Ease of System: I'd say that it's somewhat simpler than D&D 3.5.
Range of Power: Although we haven't played at various levels, by going through the book a few times, I'd say that it's pretty good with heroes of different strengths. Of course, some icons (Superman, mainly) are probably beyond the scope of Power Level 20.
Setting: Seems pretty generic information. There is even a section on the different eras of comics superheroes.
Potential: I'm not a huge superhero connaisseur, but pretty much everything I could think of in concept could be modeled (if you have enough points, that is).

All in all, the rules seem pretty balanced, and the system is very flexible, IMO. I nevertheless have the following commentaries on M&M:
- Combat seems a little bland to me: If you want to have a chance at being effective, you need to concentrate your points in a few abilities, which means you have limited options. Also, combat lasts until the bad guy rolls a 1 and is incapacitated.
- Even if the powers are balanced in terms of point cost, some are just better. If your group is made up of powergamers, they'll end up with similar characters, IMO.
- Comic-book style action, coupled with the M&M rules, can lead to some ridiculous results, some times. Last game, a PC got punched by a baddie and ended up being knocked back 500 000 feet. Basically, that PC was out of the combat, since no one had high-enough speed (or teleportation) to go get him and bring him back.

AR
 

I'll help review Mutants & Masterminds (however keep in mind that I know next to nothing about superheroes outside this):

Start-Up Cost: You can get the core book, or you can get the Pocket Player's Guide which contains all the rules and none of the extraneous GM stuff.

Expanded Cost: A lot of people think Ultimate Power does powers a better and cleaner than the core book. However you can do perfectly fine without it.

Style of System: Point-based, with the points spent on the categories of Abilities (like d20, but a bit less important), Skills (like d20), Feats (etc.), Combat stats (kinda of like d20, but maybe not), and Powers. Powers are such that in addition to having their own effects they cover the previous categories (i.e. things like Enhanced Str).
The system is pretty open, so if you take a little time you can deconstruct even things like feats to figure out how they work.
It has a built-in PC-balance-reckoning system in PL where certain of the mentioned categories cannot exceed a fixed number (but there is a bit of leeway, and it's not built in to the system such that you can't ignore it).
This is all character-creation, and actual play is very simple, being completely d20-based without play-slowing things like Attacks of Opportunity.
Ease of System: Point-buy is always going to be a bit more intensive than the plug-in nature of class-and-level. The biggest hurdle is in building up multi-effect powers from their components.
Range of Power: I can't say personally, but people seem satisfied with M&M to play superheroes of all types. However there some people has said that it doesn't do things much lower than street-level supers well, so playing "regular Joe against the zombie horde" might not work out. The simplicity of options in play mean that this isn't a system for hard-core tacticians or anyone else who likes hundreds of options.
Setting: None in core.
Potential: People say it can do a great range of genres owing to the fact that the system is based on what game-mechanical effects something has rather than in-game-world effects.
 

Honestly, if you're one of the lucky few to still have a playable copy of Marvel SAGA then use it!

Nothing ultimately wrong with either HERO or M&M, but I have a soft spot and deep abiding love for Marvel SAGA... So if you own it, use it. Then, y'know, tell us all about your home-brew setting, because I do so love to hear about Marvel SAGA campaigns that are going well.

Beyond that... I don't know. HERO/Champions is a good game, just it is also a bit of a rules monster for the unfamiliar player. Mutants & Masterminds is D20-based... If that brings baggage or appeal depends on you and your group. There's always venerable oddities like Heroes Unlimited and stuff too I suppose...

But really, stick with SAGA!
 

Honestly, if you're one of the lucky few to still have a playable copy of Marvel SAGA then use it!

Nothing ultimately wrong with either HERO or M&M, but I have a soft spot and deep abiding love for Marvel SAGA... So if you own it, use it. Then, y'know, tell us all about your home-brew setting, because I do so love to hear about Marvel SAGA campaigns that are going well.

Beyond that... I don't know. HERO/Champions is a good game, just it is also a bit of a rules monster for the unfamiliar player. Mutants & Masterminds is D20-based... If that brings baggage or appeal depends on you and your group. There's always venerable oddities like Heroes Unlimited and stuff too I suppose...

But really, stick with SAGA!

Yeah, I've really grown on Marvel SAGA. I like it much more than the old FASERIP Marvel game (that game had potential, but percentile dice were a horrid way to go—too much goes wrong instead of goes right, and an unlucky dice-rolling night can make your Class 1000 powerhouse as effective as a damp paper bag (esp. on the FASERIP Marvel's "THAC0 chart from Hell").

As for the newer (OOP) Marvel game created by Marvel—it's way too cumbersome, & I feel that math errors are waiting to happen with the moving of points to & from pools & whatnot. I like the idea of fusing some powers together (like 1 overall Flight power, with Wings being a Limit/Trait for certain power intensities), but IMO it fails to hold a candle compared to the SAGA system.

The only thing that gets annoying with the SAGA system is shuffling the damn cards (I have all 96 + the 4 extra promo cards).

Here's the wiki for my variant Marvel Earth setting: Earth-8713.

I'm still considering using Marvel SAGA for the homebrew setting, but I'm not sure it'd work well, esp. in the minds of the players. Marvel brings certain connotations with it that are habitual, and may be hard to shake off for the players at times (esp. since I have a Marvel campaign set in the Marvel U.). figure that another game system might help avoid this issue (and may help provide an option other than hauling out my 1 set of OOP cards & books every time, and double-counting them after each game to ensure that I didn't lose a single one).

The few supers games I am sorta-kinda familiar with are:
  • The aformentioned Marvel SAGA, from TSR.
  • The previous Marvel RPG (d%) from TSR as well.
  • Superbabes (ugh—didn't care for it at all, really; didn't feel very superheroish to run out of power points in the game; was more concerned about spending enough/not spending too many Power Points rather than actually acting like a superhero & doing something).
  • Heroes Unlimited, 1st & 2nd eds. (used to play it as the default, until I was introduced to Marvel SAGA; Palladium Games has diminished in value/enjoyment for me over the years).

Marvel SAGA really works for supers, and I like it better than any of the dice-based supers games I have played. However, I'm willing to give other dice-based supers games a shot, as long as I don't feel I'll be going down a path I alrwady have before, experience-wise.

Champions/HERO isn't a game I played, but I've heard horror stories about it (such as not buying all of the "powers" of a rope for a rope; etc.). My players are familiar with Marvel SAGA, so I'd like something game-wise that'll feel like it's relatively easy & accomodating to play.

I will say this—I'm not a fan of purchasing PDFs for the most part, esp. for rulebooks & other high page-count items. I want a bound, printed product that I can (feasibly) buy off the shelf & have suffer the wear & tear of any other gaming book. Investing in printed copies is the concern for me.
 

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